ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #13 - Steve Nash vs. Gary Payton

[G.O.A.T]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]

Make your arguments here for the next 48 hours on rather Steve Nash or Gary Payton should advance and continue to move higher on the list. Put the players name you are voting for in BOLD so I don't miss it when I tally. The loser of this poll will be ranked #14 in our project.

[/FONT]

15 seasons
7x all-NBA
7x all-star
2005 & 2006 MVP
5x Assists Leader
2x FT% Leader
1st All-time in FT%
8th All-time in 3pt fg%
10th All-time in 3-pointers made


Votes (11)

SteveNashMVPcro
iamgine
Rose
ThaSwagg3r
RobertdeMeijer
Shaqattack3234
magnax1
Big 164
WillC
G.O.A.T
nycelt84





17 seasons
9x all-NBA
9x all-star
9x all-defensive (all 1st team)
1996 DPOTY
1x steals leader
4th all-time in steals
8th all-time in assists
2006 NBA Champion

Votes (4)

bizil
PTB Fan
crosso√er
Gotterdammerung
necya

[SFMF]

Damn... this is harder than I thought

[iamgine]

Well let me repost what I said about Steve Nash a while back...


I used to be one of those people who said those 2 MVPs Nash got was a big mistake. I mean, over Kobe and Duncan? You gotta be joking. Clearly those 2 players must be better right? Then I started to follow Nash over a few games. My view totally change. My goodness, he's totally unstoppable. One of the smartest player I've ever seen stepped on the court. I would put him up there with Magic Johnson. Steve Nash was a combination of one of the most accurate shooter and one of the most elite playmaker in NBA history.

And he got a somewhat undeserved rep on defense. He does try hard, and while still a liability, he's not as bad as many people make him out to be. He's really bad against certain type of players but otherwise a decent defender. Plus PG position is the least important defense-wise.

I have no doubt in my mind that had the Suns played with a good defensive big back in mid 2000s, they'd have dominated the league.

[PTB Fan]

Gary Payton


He was a more complete player, who has edge more aspects of the game, was clearly a better defender, had better resume and his peak was arguably better.

[pauk]

Nash > Payton in terms of career

Payton > Nash in terms of talent-skill

[Bigsmoke]

Gary Payton

I think more teams would benifit from Payton's abilities because he great on both offense and defense... so good on defense that he was able to win DPOY as a PG which is very rare and defended MJ better than anyone. Payton also give you 20ppg on around 49% shooting and 8 assists a game so its not like he's offensively challanged.

Nash is the better offensive player but his defense is ass.

I have Nash over Kidd tho'

[Pushxx]

Definitely Steve Nash.

[Rose]

Nash could run some of the best offenses, which is a historical fact, not opinion. He could literally turn a guy like Diaw, into a capable power forward. He could make sure to keep his team relatively happy, and ALWAYS on track for 50+ wins. No matter who he was with when he had another all star. and now that he doesn't at 38, he STILL CARRIED them to 40. What he could do offensively made up for his lack of defense, and there's only a handful of guys who you can say that about. Also, he's the best shooter of all time.

With Payton, sure he played elite and the best defense from the point guard position ever. But it's not like he was a center, yes his defense was valuable, but nowhere near Nash's level of offense. Yes he could run an offense as well, but I'm still taking Nash

To me the answer is Steve Nash

[HylianNightmare]

Steve Nash

[Clippersfan86]

Gary Payton. Gary was a better scorer, rebounder and 10 times better defender. The only aspects Nash has Gary is passing and playmaking ability. I understand it's important as a PG but Gary's defense was elite.

If I asked you.... which stat line you'd take you tell me?

24 ppg, 9 apg, 6.5 rpg, 2 spg on good all around shooting percentages and elite defense. Arguably best man defender in NBA history. Only PG ever to win DPOY and it was during the toughest era.

or

19 ppg, 12 apg, 3.5 rpg and 1 spg on good all around shooting percentages. Arguably the greatest playmaker/passer in NBA history and at worst top 3. Extremely efficient all around shooter, can hit any shot.


One of those statlines is arguably the greatest all around PG season ever... right next to CP3's best season and Magic and Stockton's best seasons.

[LastEpisode]

No matter how good Nash is on offense, that guy is a liability on defense..

I'm not hating on Nash but Payton and Kidd are better than him..

[Droid101]

Nash, and not close.

The dude almost had TWO 50/50/90 seasons (freaking unheard of). This is arguably the BEST shooter in NBA history. He's led HISTORICALLY GREAT offensive teams, some of the best of all time.

[Droid101]

LOL! I guess I sold Steve Nash short.

Steve Nash has been the point guard of the BEST FIVE offenses since the league started tracking the offensive officiency stat in 73-74.

BEST OFFENSES SINCE 1973-74


Team

Year

Off. Eff.

League Average

Difference




Dallas

2003-04

109.58

100.05

+9.53



Phoenix

2004-05

111.90

103.07

+8.82



Phoenix

2009-10

112.65

103.99

+8.66



Dallas

2001-02

109.49

101.59

+7.89



Phoenix

2006-07

111.42

103.06

+8.06



There is no reason to pick GP over Nash. Nash has incredible shooting percentages and will end his career with the best FT percentage in history. Two MVP's. There's just no case for Payton.

[G.O.A.T]

Here is how Nash and Payton fared against the best PG they faced in each of their five prime playoff runs.

Steve Nash

2005 vs. Tony Parker (Spurs win in five)

Nash - 23.2 ppg 10.6 apg 52 fg%
Parker - 20.4 ppg 4.2 apg 46 fg%

2006 vs. Sam Cassell (Suns win in seven)

Nash - 18.3 ppg 10.8 apg 48 fg%
Cassell - 20.4 ppg 6.0 apg 46 fg%

2007 vs. Tony Parker (Spurs win in six)

Nash - 21.3 ppg 12.7 apg 44 fg%
Parker - 20.8 ppg 5.7 apg 45 fg%

2008 vs. Tony Parker (Spurs win in five)

Nash - 16.2 ppg 7.8 apg 46 fg%
Parker - 29.6 ppg 7.0 apg 51 fg%

2010 vs. Tony Parker (Suns win in four)

Nash - 22.3 ppg 7.8 apg 56 fg%
Parker - 19.5 ppg 5.0 apg 48 fg%

Overall vs Tony Parker

20 Games played (Spurs lead 12-8)

Nash - 20.7 ppg 10.0 apg 48 fg%
Parker - 22.6 ppg 5.5 apg 47 fg%

Overall Totals

27 games played (Suns 12-15)

Steve Nash - 20.0 ppg 10.2 apg 48 fg%
Opposing PG's - 22.0 ppg 5.7 apg 47 fg%



Gary Payton

1996 vs. John Stockton (Sonics win in seven)

Payton - 20.7 ppg 6.0 apg .504 fg%
Stockton - 9.9 ppg 7.6 apg .397 fg%

1997 vs. Kevin Johnson (Sonics win in five)

Payton - 25.4 ppg 9.0 apg 41 fg%
Johnson - 16.8 ppg 6.0 apg .295 fg%

1998 vs. Stephon Marbury (Sonics win in five)

Payton - 26.0 ppg 5.6 apg 50 fg%
Marbury - 13.8 ppg 7.6 apg .306 fg%

2000 vs. John Stockton (Jazz win in five)

Payton - 27.0 ppg 7.2 apg 44 fg%
Stockton - 13.0 ppg 12.2 apg 51 fg%

2002 vs. Tony Parker (rookie) (Spurs win in five)

Payton - 22.2 ppg 5.8 apg 42 fg%
Parker - 17.2 ppg 2.6 apg 50 fg%

Overall Totals

27 games played (Sonics 15-12)

Gary Payton - 24.5 ppg 6.7 apg 45 fg%
Opposing PG's - 13.8 ppg 7.1 apg 39 fg%

[G.O.A.T]

Why wouldnt you just make a topic to discuss what you wish about Payton?

Why get involved in his thing if he doesnt wish for you to?

Just to be difficult?

The fact that he wouldn't do that is exactly why I don't want him fu[COLOR="Black"]c[/COLOR]king up the project. It's all about being an instigator.