ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #14 - Allen Iverson vs. Gary Payton

[Kblaze8855]

Glove once told me Zo was only a great defender for 2 years when he was making the case that Payton had more defensive impact on games than Zo. Zo...who was on a team with few real defensive players that was holding teams to 42-43% shooting for years. Zo who was at times the best defender in the playoffs...like...7-8 years past his prime after his illness.

When people take the love of anyone to that extent there is very little they have to say that needs saying. Plus...hes just gonna flat out refuse not to argue in the guys topic? Guy is making an effort to do something hes spending weeks on...and he just flatly refuses to stay out? Claims nobody can stop him?

Its at least a little funny to see that someone can.

Free speech it seems has no place on the internet. At times troubling...when its just some guy not being allowed to be a cheerleader for a guy when hes been asked not to do it?

Not so troubling.

[Story Up]

That's why there is an ignore function. Him being a homer or troll already makes him ineligible for this project. GOAT should have just ignored him and anyone who didn't want to read his posts; freedom of speech is everyone's right and people who actually read his posts should be allowed to. Deleting his posts just demonstrates inequality when idiots like Paul are allowed to create redundant threads every second of every day.

I'm not a dan of Glove, he can be really annoying but the guy does know basketball despite his lack of objectivity concerning his favorite players.

Like I said, ignoring him would have been just to anyone who wish to do so; others who wish to discuss ball with him should be allowed to do so. Kblaze, you were attacked by many in the Reggie thread; no one singles you out despite your obvious hatred.

[Kblaze8855]

When I mentioned it a while back I was told freedom of speech doesnt exist in privately owned places because even if you have the right to speak you dont have the right to exist where you arent wanted if someone has the right to remove you by force. If you walk into a library they arent violating your rights to make you leave if you are being loud. As public as a forum may seem...they really arent.

Setting out to disrupt(in the eyes of its creator) a project it seems ISH has an interest in seeing completed appears to be enough to warrant a response.

If he made a topic saying "I think this about ____" I doubt its bothered. It isnt the opinions. its the "Im gonna say this here and you cant stop me" part of it I suspect.

Long story short....if someone spends weeks with a project and doesnt want you involved its probably best to not be a dick and force your way in because you think nobody will stop you.

I doubt anyone cares enough to stop him if he wants to be a GP cheerleader in his own way. Just not in a way that disrupts other peoples efforts.

[ThaRegul8r]

When I mentioned it a while back I was told freedom of speech doesnt exist in privately owned places because even if you have the right to speak you dont have the right to exist where you arent wanted if someone has the right to remove you by force. If you walk into a library they arent violating your rights to make you leave if you are being loud. As public as a forum may seem...they really arent.

It doesn't. It's ridiculous that people try to talk about "freedom of speech" (which is an American thing) on a message board. You have to agree to a Terms of Service before you can even do anything on a message board. There are rules laid out as to what you cannot say and cannot do. If you violate these rules, you can be banned. If one doesn't like it, one can get gone. Go make your own board where you can do whatever you want. (And when people talk about "freedom," they always mean "license to do whatever I want," and they're never interested in responsibility that comes with freedom, as in taking responsibility, when you've got people doing things like suing airlines for not waking them up when they fell asleep and subsequently miss their flight. I wanna do whatever I want, but then blame any outcomes on my actions on anyone else other than me.) There is no "freedom of speech" on a message board, other than being free to abide by the guidelines the creators of the board set.

[StroShow4]

Yea...some of the best moderating in recent history. Im voting the mod responsible onto my all mod first team and giving him a first place MVP vote provided his forum finishes top 3.

Vote for Glove_20.

[iamgine]

In what season did Gary Payton became one of the GOAT defender? Was it in his DPOY season or earlier? And when did he lose that title?

[G.O.A.T]

Payton advances

Thanks to the moderators here and the admins for the support.

The last two days were the most frustrating and time consuming for the project. I read every post from someone not on my ignore list to make sure I don't miss any votes or requests to join the voting, or even miss the chance to invite someone who is doing a good job opining.

GP_20 makes that very tough to do because he constantly instigates arguments. Not debates but arguments where he presents his side and ignores everything else. It was bringing down the project.

I haven't posted in a thread he's created in years and have asked him numerous times to stay out of mine. I don't see why that's unfair. It's one or two threads at a time on a forum with literally thousands of topics being discussed.

Had he shown up at any other time except only when KJ and Payton votes came up, maybe I could take him serious, but you all seen when he popped in and how many posts he was making.

Thanks again to everyone for the support, sorry to those who think it was a childish move (it is to some extent) but this project takes up at least an hour a day for me. I didn't feel spending that hour frustrated.

[Gotterdammerung]

Vote for Glove_20.

Ah what did the GP troll say in response to my posted excerpt?

[StroShow4]

Ah what did the GP troll say in response to my posted excerpt?

Neither post acknowledged it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I was really just comparing their highest scoring seasons to eachother to try and make the point that Payton really wasn't any more efficient. I don't really disagree with anything you said. However I don't really doubt that Iverson could've shot around 54% in 01 if he had Chris Webber instead of Mutumbo as his first option. I do think Iverson's innefeciency in most of his seasons has more to do with lack of help (and injuies a couple seasons) then anything else. Not that he was ever going to be a high efficiency scorer in the first place.

Nah, I don't see teams paying any less attention to one of the most dangerous scorers in the game because of C-Webb post-microfracture surgery. I liked C-Webb in Sacramento, he was one of the top 5-10 players in the league there for several years and he had an amazing skill set with good athleticism, but once he got to Philadelphia, he wasn't much of a factor, despite his numbers.

I don't think that Webber by that point was really any better than Derrick Coleman when he went back to Philly in '01-'02 or Keith Van Horn when he played there.

[EricForman]

i'm quite surprised people on ISH voted for GP over Iverson.