ISH Group Project: Ranking the top 25 NBA guards of all-time

[G.O.A.T]

If we are talking peaks, maybe so, but looking at Joe's career he should be.

Just to be clear, I am not defining any criteria, to each their own. I would hope people would weigh peak, prime, longevity, resume, stats, popular/expert opinion etc. but in the end, it's a bunch of biased lists trying to produce one unbiased one.

I thought when I saw Clyde above Wade you were talking Drexler but then I saw Drexler after Wade. Pretty good list, the only disagreement I have is that Allen should be way above Miller. No way was Miller better than him. Ray should be above Dumars too.

Why should Allen be above Miller?

I mean, I can see a case for it, but you essentially have two guys who played a very similair style with similair results, except that Miller's teams were consitently good and frequently contenders and Allen's team were almost never contenders and missed the playoffs more often than they made them. Now the Boston yeas help sure, but Ray was the third or fourth best player on those teams. That's a much different role. Reggie taking the Pacers to the Finals plus two or three more ECF's puts him above Ray for me, but they are very very close IMO.

[Dasher]

I rank them thusly:

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Walt Frazier
Jerry West
Bob Cousy
Lenny Wilkens
Isiah Thomas
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
John Stockton
Manu Ginnobili
Dwyane Wade
Steve Nash
Clyde Drexler
Bill Sharman
Richie Guerin
Sam Jones
Dennis Johnson
Hal Greer
Allen Iverson
Kevin Johnson
Tiny Archibald
Earl Monroe

[L.Kizzle]

1. Jeffrey
2. Buck
3. Bean
4. O
5. Logo
6. Zeke
7. Cooz
8. Clyde
9. Flash
10. J-Kidd
11. Drexler
12. Stockton
13. Payton
14. Nash
15. Iverson
16. Gervin
17. Sam Jones
18. Hal Greer
19. Dennis Johnson
20. Bill Sharman
21. Joe Dumars
22. Nate Archibald
23. Earl Monroe
24. Bob Davies
25. Reggie Miller
---------------
26. Sidney Moncrief
27. Ray Allen
28. Pistol
29. T-MAC

Unless someone convinces me otherwise, these are the guys I'm considering.

Surprised by you having Bob Davies here. But he was the best guards before Bob Cousy emerged.

[KGMN]

Can I use a formula to rank them mathematically, then change as discussion continues? I don't have a formula yet, but I am currently putting statistics in Microsoft Excel for all of the guards you mentioned could possibly be in there earlier.

[G.O.A.T]

Surprised by you having Bob Davies here. But he was the best guards before Bob Cousy emerged.

I've learned a lot about him in the past two years. He was the unquestioned leader of the Royals (the second best team behind Mikan's Lakers for the first 4-5 years of the NBA) He led them to a title in 1951 as their best player, he was all-NBA first team four straight years. Won a NBL MVP in 1947 (while Mikan was in the league) and also played for a Royals title team (1946) in that league, and did all this while giving up wha would have been his first three years as a pro to WWII.

He was the first star guard of post WWII pro basketball. He did what Cousy couldn't do and led his team to a title and accomplished many of Cousy's other single season feats and even once had over 20 assists in a game durin an era when 5 a night might lead he league.

Can I use a formula to rank them mathematically, then change as discussion continues? I don't have a formula yet, but I am currently putting statistics in Microsoft Excel for all of the guards you mentioned could possibly be in there earlier.

Sure, but I forgot Isiah and Sid Moncrief...add them.

Also where does Doug West rank on your all-time 25 greatest Timberwolve guards list?

[KGMN]

Sure, but I forgot Isiah and Sid Moncrief...add them.

Also where does Doug West rank on your all-time 25 greatest Timberwolve guards list?

I wish I could say, but I only became a Timberwolves fan after I moved to the USA in 2000. I don't know much about him, but I know that many Timberwolves fans on Canis Hoopus really enjoyed watching him play. I'm guessing that he would be somewhere in the top 5-10 Wolves guards, but I really don't know too much about him.

[D-Wade316]

Top 10's, 25's, 100's is highly subjective. Especially when we group together two highly different positions.

[G.O.A.T]

Top 10's, 25's, 100's is highly subjective. Especially when we group together two highly different positions.

They aren't really that different when you consider that most of the guys in consideration for the top ten played both positions at some point of their career either on offense, defense or both.

The reason I've chose guards and not Point and shooting positions is because of this and because a lot of people have a "prototype" for what each position shoul be and use that as a criteria, I was trying to avoid that and instead wanted to just rank basketball players.

[L.Kizzle]

I rank them thusly:

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Walt Frazier
Jerry West
Bob Cousy
Lenny Wilkens
Isiah Thomas
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
John Stockton
Manu Ginnobili
Dwyane Wade
Steve Nash
Clyde Drexler
Bill Sharman
Richie Guerin
Sam Jones
Dennis Johnson
Hal Greer
Allen Iverson
Kevin Johnson
Tiny Archibald
Earl Monroe

Why

[G.O.A.T]

I rank them thusly:

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Walt Frazier
Jerry West
Bob Cousy
Lenny Wilkens
Isiah Thomas
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
John Stockton
Manu Ginnobili
Dwyane Wade
Steve Nash
Clyde Drexler
Bill Sharman
Richie Guerin
Sam Jones
Dennis Johnson
Hal Greer
Allen Iverson
Kevin Johnson
Tiny Archibald
Earl Monroe

One of these things is not like the other ones...

Anyway, good stuff though, you in?

[D-Wade316]

They aren't really that different when you consider that most of the guys in consideration for the top ten played both positions at some point of their career either on offense, defense or both.

The reason I've chose guards and not Point and shooting positions is because of this and because a lot of people have a "prototype" for what each position shoul be and use that as a criteria, I was trying to avoid that and instead wanted to just rank basketball players.

If that were the case, Big O would trump them all.

[G.O.A.T]

If that were the case, Big O would trump them all.

Use the quote option when you reply to make it more clear who you are talking to. EDIT: (You got it nvm)

And to your point here, no, he wouldn't.

Even if you put the team successes aside, Oscar was not nearly as good a defensive player as three of the other four guys in te top five. It's very much debatable.

[rmt]

Why should Allen be above Miller?

I mean, I can see a case for it, but you essentially have two guys who played a very similair style with similair results, except that Miller's teams were consitently good and frequently contenders and Allen's team were almost never contenders and missed the playoffs more often than they made them. Now the Boston yeas help sure, but Ray was the third or fourth best player on those teams. That's a much different role. Reggie taking the Pacers to the Finals plus two or three more ECF's puts him above Ray for me, but they are very very close IMO.

What about on the defensive end? Is it just me or don't you think Allen's better on that end? I thought he did a pretty good job on Kobe. I'd choose Allen over Miller. Maybe I'm just biased because I hate his commentating.

[D-Wade316]

Use the quote option when you reply to make it more clear who you are talking to. EDIT: (You got it nvm)

And to your point here, no, he wouldn't.

Even if you put the team successes aside, Oscar was not nearly as good a defensive player as three of the other four guys in te top five. It's very much debatable.

I know. My mistake.

He averaged triple-double in his first 5 seasons. (Pace users, don't come here. There are no such things such as inflated stats). He was the first of the big guards. It's hard to know how good defensively he was, when stl and blk weren't even recorded back in his time. We'll just put him as a good defender. Regarding success, I don't put it in consideration. His legacy to the game went beyond the success.

[Boston C's]

Just to be clear, I am not defining any criteria, to each their own. I would hope people would weigh peak, prime, longevity, resume, stats, popular/expert opinion etc. but in the end, it's a bunch of biased lists trying to produce one unbiased one.



Why should Allen be above Miller?

I mean, I can see a case for it, but you essentially have two guys who played a very similair style with similair results, except that Miller's teams were consitently good and frequently contenders and Allen's team were almost never contenders and missed the playoffs more often than they made them. Now the Boston yeas help sure, but Ray was the third or fourth best player on those teams. That's a much different role. Reggie taking the Pacers to the Finals plus two or three more ECF's puts him above Ray for me, but they are very very close IMO.

Allen was just a better basketball player then Miller period... got mad love for reggie but ray is equal to him in shooting while doing more then that... reggie provided scoring but not much else... ray in his prime was a good rebounder and playmaker (played some point for seattle) he has a ring at worst as the 3rd best player but still a ring nonetheless and if you wanna point out teams allen played on a shit sonics team that in the west gave the spurs the biggest scare in 05 and as for philly the bucks got absolutely robbed (wouldnt matter as the lakers would thrash them anyway) if you look at individual accolades all across the board ray trumps reggie in basically every category... reggie is deserving to be on the top 25 but over ray I just dont see a case for it