ISH Group Project: Ranking the top 25 NBA guards of all-time

[ThaSwagg3r]

Someone help me with this Iverson-Gervin debate, I am stuck and right now I have Gervin ranked above Iverson but I am thinking about swapping the two slots.

[PTB Fan]

Someone help me with this Iverson-Gervin debate, I am stuck and right now I have Gervin ranked above Iverson but I am thinking about swapping the two slots.

That's a debate between one dimensional stars, expect AI gave at least some kind of effort in defense with those steals and drugged the 76ers to a NBA Finals..

Still, i'd go with Gervin. He's much much better offensive force overall, better overall and more purer scorer. His resume is nice and is already a legend.

[magnax1]

We have 22 people now participating and 19 lists posted. There is still ime to change your list, but please post ASAP so you don't get missed when I tally the votes Sunday. We have no open spots, but we encourage people to follow the project in the event that you want to join in later and/or we need to replace someone.

We're still waiting on three of you to post your lists and I know a few others who are still working on theirs while they are readng and discussing within the thread. Remember to have your list finalized (I suggest putting it in bold font) before Sunday Morning. That's when I will be collecting he data and preparing for the head-to-head debates. i am thinking just two days of voting for each match-up. i can't be on here every day and I know others can't either, but I think most of us can check in for a half hour once every few days or often enough to keep it moving. We can extend an extra day if there is a close vote or low participation.

Once again, please let me know if you or your list have not been included on the roster below...ADD YOUR LIST AS SOON AS YOU ARE READY


The Roster

L.Kizzle (posted on pg 3)
ThaSwagg3r (posted on pg 3)
Rose (posted on pg 10)
Will3 (posted on pg 8)
Odinn (posted on pg 3)
G.O.A.T (posted on pg 5)
Wukillabeez78 (posted on pg 13)
Dasher (posted on pg 5)
1987 Lakers (posted on pg 10)
neyca (posted on pg 13)
Toizumi (posted on pg 13)
wally world (posted on pg 10)
Shaqattack3234 (posted on pg 17)
Magnax1 (posted on pg 13)
RobertdeMeijer (posted on pg 14)
iamgine (posted on page 15)
nycelt84 (posted on pg 16)
KGMN (posted on pg 15)
SteveNashMVPcro (posted on pg 14)


Tha Regul8r
RRR3
Rowe
------------

I posted a new list on page 14.

[G.O.A.T]

(McGrady) was a great passer and definitely one of the best non-PG as far as passing and playmaking of his era. A much better rebounder than Gervin and a good defender, while I've generally heard Gervin called a poor defender, and haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise when I've watched some of his games.

T-Mac was far more well rounded than Gervin, that's not even debatable.

I would agree, but Gervin's resume is far more well rounded and that's not debatable. Everything McGrady achieved, Gervin did more often. McGrady made seven all-NBA teams, the first team twice. Gervin made nine all-league teams in nine years, the all-NBA first team five consecutive times from 1978-1982. McGrady won two scoring titles and finished in the top seven five times. Gervin led the league four times and ten times was in the top seven. Both peaked in an era of dominate big men, Garnett, Duncan and Shaq for McGrady, Moses, Walton and Kareem for Ice. As a result neither won the MVP both both were often in the running. McGrady finished fourth twice and four more twice more was in the top six. Gervin finished second twice and was top six for five consecutive years.

Now yes, McGrady was the more complete player, but to what end? Was he more effective? He didn't garner higher esteem amongst his peers or the media of the era. He didn't distinguish himself as the best at his position as Gervin did. He never even won a single playoff series. 0-7. Gervin's teams were 3-10 in his prime years in the playoffs, but the Spurs did reach two conference finals in the 1980's.

Both players were awesome in the playoffs. McGrady was the top per game playoff scorer in 2001 and 2002. Gervin achieved that same feat five consecutive times in the NBA from 78-82 and averaged 34 and 14 in six ABA playoff games in 1976. Gervin who only averaged over six rebounds a game three times in his career, has a career postseason average of seven rebounds. McGrady has averaged better than 30 points per game in four of his seven career playoff series.

To me choosing between these guys in terms of who the better player was is a toss up. In terms of who had the better career and who is more significant historically...I have Gervin more than 30 spots higher than T-MAC.

Someone help me with this Iverson-Gervin debate, I am stuck and right now I have Gervin ranked above Iverson but I am thinking about swapping the two slots.

I have them side by side in my all-time rankings with AI just ahead basicalyl because he achieved just a little more individually and a little more team-wise as a result primarily of 2001.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I would agree, but Gervin's resume is far more well rounded and that's not debatable. Everything McGrady achieved, Gervin did more often. McGrady made seven all-NBA teams, the first team twice. Gervin made nine all-league teams in nine years, the all-NBA first team five consecutive times from 1978-1982. McGrady won two scoring titles and finished in the top seven five times. Gervin led the league four times and ten times was in the top seven. Both peaked in an era of dominate big men, Garnett, Duncan and Shaq for McGrady, Moses, Walton and Kareem for Ice. As a result neither won the MVP both both were often in the running. McGrady finished fourth twice and four more twice more was in the top six. Gervin finished second twice and was top six for five consecutive years.

Now yes, McGrady was the more complete player, but to what end? Was he more effective? He didn't garner higher esteem amongst his peers or the media of the era. He didn't distinguish himself as the best at his position as Gervin did. He never even won a single playoff series. 0-7. Gervin's teams were 3-10 in his prime years in the playoffs, but the Spurs did reach two conference finals in the 1980's.

Both players were awesome in the playoffs. McGrady was the top per game playoff scorer in 2001 and 2002. Gervin achieved that same feat five consecutive times in the NBA from 78-82 and averaged 34 and 14 in six ABA playoff games in 1976. Gervin who only averaged over six rebounds a game three times in his career, has a career postseason average of seven rebounds. McGrady has averaged better than 30 points per game in four of his seven career playoff series.

To me choosing between these guys in terms of who the better player was is a toss up. In terms of who had the better career and who is more significant historically...I have Gervin more than 30 spots higher than T-MAC.

I was mostly making that point about Gervin not ranking higher because he was one-dimensional. And I actually like Gervin, I was just watching a game of his from 1982 and always find him to be entertaining.

The point that WillC made about T-Mac being one-dimensional made no sense to me.

I personally think that McGrady had a clear advantage prime vs prime, admittedly, I watched T-Mac play for years, and saw his peak as it was happening so that may skew my opinion to some degree.

As far as T-Mac, well, I think he was facing teams considerably better than his in the playoffs every year, sometimes a lot better such as 2003, the fact that he took that team to 7 is amazing, imo. He was going up against a really good team with a cast of Drew Gooden and Gordan Giricek in their rookie years, Darrell Armstrong at 34 years old, Shawn Kemp in his last year at 310 pounds and who else? Pat Garrity?

Because I'm focusing more on a player's best years, I couldn't put T-Mac much lower. From 2002-2005, he was right there with Kobe, who ended up 3rd on my list.

He is penalized for such a short prime, and no playoff success, otherwise, he would've been higher. The fact that he never proved himself in later rounds(regardless of whether it was his fault), holds him back, but I've seen both Kobe and Wade in similar situations, and they did no better, see Kobe from 2005-2007 or Wade from 2007-2010. And obviously, I have T-Mac quite a bit lower, because they did prove themselves in the later rounds.

The one year, I think that T-Mac should've won the first round series was 2007, and I don't consider 2007 T-Mac as good as 2001-2005 T-Mac. And even in that game 7, T-Mac ended up with 29 points and 13 assists on a respectable 12/25 shooting, and a lot of those assists were 3s. I am critical of him not shooting better or scoring more efficiently that series, and I couldn't believe that he wasn't completely destroying Derek Fisher when he was guarding him, but even the one series that I feel T-Mac should've won, isn't that big of a blemish to me for those reasons.

[G.O.A.T]

Last day to post or edit your lists...

Please let me know if you plan on dropping from the project for now, if you haven't had time to go on, just jump in when you do, we'll start the next part.

[ThaSwagg3r]

I have them side by side in my all-time rankings with AI just ahead basicalyl because he achieved just a little more individually and a little more team-wise as a result primarily of 2001.

I'm sticking with Gervin. Iverson really just had one season of success because he never really did anything special outside of that other than win a few more scoring titles. That was really the only time he ever made the Conference Finals. Gervin made the Conference Finals twice although back in his day you just had to win one series in order to make the conference finals. Both of these guys were fantastic scorers but Gervin was worlds more efficient than Iverson was.

[G.O.A.T]

Last call for lists.

Still waiting on Rowe and Regul8r.

You may edit until 5pm EST.

At that time I will be tallying the points. I'll post the first H2H thread around midnight and will close the voting Tuesday at Midnight EST.

If you have not submitted a list and/or are not Rowe and Regul8r, you may not vote in this round unless someone else drops out. At that point we will choose a replacement from those following the thread and discussion.

[wally_world]

My final list:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Magic Johnson
4) Isiah Thomas
5) Jerry West
6) Oscar Robertson
7) Steve Nash
8) Bob Cousy
9) Dwyane Wade
10) Jason Kidd
11) Gary Payton
12) John Stockton
13) Allen Iverson
14) Walt Frazier
15) Clyde Drexler
16) Sam Jones
17) George Gervin
18) Dennis Johnson
19) Bill Sharman
20) Earl Monroe
21) Hal Greer
22) Tiny Archibald
23) Lenny Wilkins
24) Pete Maravich
25) Mitch Richmond

Missed the cut:
Ray Allen
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Tracy McGrady
Chris Paul

[PTB Fan]

I'm new but i will try something here


1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Oscar Robertson
4.Jerry West
5.Kobe Bryant
6.John Stockton
7.Jason Kidd
8.Dwyane Wade
9.Clyde Drexler
10.George Gervin
11.Walt Frazier
12.Gary Payton
13.Allen Iverson
14.Bob Cousy
15.Earl Monroe
16.Sam Jones
17.Pistol Pete
18.Reggie Miller
19.Nate Archibald
20.David Thompson
21.Hal Greer
22.Bob Davies
23.Bill Sharman
24.Pete Maravich
25.Mitch Richmond

[G.O.A.T]

1. Michael Jordan - 450 points (18 of 18 #1 rankings)
2. Magic Johnson - 430 points
3. Kobe Bryant - 410 points
4. Oscar Robertson - 393 points
5. Jerry West - 379 points
6. Isiah Thomas - 333 points
7. Bob Cousy - 310 points
8. Dwyane Wade - 303 points
9. Walt Frazier - 281 points
10. John Stockton - 278 points
11. Jason Kidd - 261 points
12. Clyde Drexler - 244 points (Drexler ahead of Nash in 11 of 18 lists)
13. Steve Nash - 244 points
14. Gary Payton - 222 points
15. Allen Iverson - 215 points
16. George Gervin - 196 points
17. Sam Jones - 127 points
18. Hal Greer - 109 points
19. Ray Allen - 87 points
20. Reggie Miller - 67 points
21. Dennis Johnson - 63 points
22. Tracy McGrady - 59 points
23. Nate Archibald - 58 points
24. Earl Monroe - 47 points
----------------------------
Chris Paul (43 points) vs. Joe Dumars (32 points)
Bill Sharman (38 points) vs. Kevin Johnson (33 points)

[L.Kizzle]

1. Michael Jordan - 450 points (18 of 18 #1 rankings)
2. Magic Johnson - 430 points
3. Kobe Bryant - 410 points
4. Oscar Robertson - 393 points
5. Jerry West - 379 points
6. Isiah Thomas - 333 points
7. Bob Cousy - 310 points
8. Dwyane Wade - 303 points
9. Walt Frazier - 281 points
10. John Stockton - 278 points
11. Jason Kidd - 261 points
12. Clyde Drexler - 244 points (Drexler ahead of Nash in 11 of 18 lists)
13. Steve Nash - 244 points
14. Gary Payton - 222 points
15. Allen Iverson - 215 points
16. George Gervin - 196 points
17. Sam Jones - 127 points
18. Hal Greer - 109 points
19. Ray Allen - 87 points
20. Reggie Miller - 67 points
21. Dennis Johnson - 63 points
22. Tracy McGrady - 59 points
23. Nate Archibald - 58 points
24. Earl Monroe - 47 points
----------------------------
Chris Paul (43 points) vs. Joe Dumars (32 points)
Bill Sharman (38 points) vs. Kevin Johnson (33 points)

Awesome, I wonder who's top 25 list was the closest to the total voting ranks.

Surprised to see no Dave Bing anywhere near the top 25 or so.

[Rose]

My list from 1-20 is basically that one.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Only those that listed their top 25 can vote right?

[Gifted Mind]

1. Michael Jordan - 450 points (18 of 18 #1 rankings)
2. Magic Johnson - 430 points
3. Kobe Bryant - 410 points
4. Oscar Robertson - 393 points
5. Jerry West - 379 points
6. Isiah Thomas - 333 points
7. Bob Cousy - 310 points
8. Dwyane Wade - 303 points
9. Walt Frazier - 281 points
10. John Stockton - 278 points
11. Jason Kidd - 261 points
12. Clyde Drexler - 244 points (Drexler ahead of Nash in 11 of 18 lists)
13. Steve Nash - 244 points
14. Gary Payton - 222 points
15. Allen Iverson - 215 points
16. George Gervin - 196 points
17. Sam Jones - 127 points
18. Hal Greer - 109 points
19. Ray Allen - 87 points
20. Reggie Miller - 67 points
21. Dennis Johnson - 63 points
22. Tracy McGrady - 59 points
23. Nate Archibald - 58 points
24. Earl Monroe - 47 points
----------------------------
Chris Paul (43 points) vs. Joe Dumars (32 points)
Bill Sharman (38 points) vs. Kevin Johnson (33 points)

Pretty good list. Maybe a few minor disagreements but overall a well-done list.