"Kobe had Shaq and Gasol, plus he played on stacked teams"

[Micku]

01' playoff's 29PPG 6reb 5ast....those aren't monster?...those are better then Wade's 06' run

02' playoff's 27PPG 5ast 5reb

Kobe
29/6/6 on 49% eFG
30/5/5 on 50% eFG
???

Jordan
30/5/4 on 49% eFG
31/8/5 on 47% eFG
32/5/3 on 47% eFG

Kobe's numbers and trendline is actually just as good if not better than jordan's second threepeat..


good job at watching and recognizing game...

Other legends:

I wasn't talking about playoffs and I wasn't comparing Jordan, but I was talking about other greats. I think he probably isn't consider as impressive. Compare Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Shaq. Not only in their prime they pulled monster numbers in the regular season, they just had a different impact on the floor than Kobe. Nothing wrong with that. Kobe is his own player, and a different player than them. People hold that deal those guys more dear, and their legacies are already been done. So far, most of them had a better peak and prime than Kobe did. But I think you can debate about some, so whatever.


Jordan:
And with Jordan, I think some of Kobe's runs in the playoffs are comparable with old Jordan. That shows his mark as a player. While I don't think Kobe numbers are necessary better, they are comparable. There are also things that go on the floor that you would have to watch and everything that doesn't show on the stat sheet.

But again, it is 32-35ish Jordan you are comparing to Kobe's best playoffs runs. It shows how great Jordan was. Prime Jordan was crazy, and shows the gap between them.

Using the stats similar to your comparison of them:

Jordan:
34.8/7.0/7.6 .523% eFG
36.3/7.1/4.7 .533% eFG
34.5/6.2/5.8 .514% eFG
31.1/6.4/8.4 .537% eFG

Jordan wasn't human.

And there are more playoff runs that he did that were like that. Not to mention if you go into detail on his playoff series. He set the bar and records for many things.

But I don't want this to be Jordan vs Kobe thing. I want to talk about why Kobe isn't credited as greatly as other players.

Why does Kobe have to be any of those players you mentioned?

The majority of his peers say he is the best of his generation. lol, "he has no impact on the floor".

Really? So why then, in 06 and 07, in the preseason projections, did most people have the Lakers pegged for 11th and 12th in the west? If he had no impact, how did he get his teams to even make the playoffs in those years where mostly everyone thought he couldn't lead his team anywhere near the post season?

Who should he have won with in order to gain the respect from those who say "he had Shaq and Gasol".

Kobe doesn't have to be compared to them, but people are constantly being compared. And if you are talking about what place does Kobe have in the all time greats, then you must talk about them.

And I didn't say that Kobe doesn't have impact. I said that Kobe possibly does not have the impact that other legends had. And I think he is probably the best of his generation. He has an incredibly longitude. I thought he may have drop down already, but he is still one of the best.

Kobe is still one of the best and top 10 player. He gets his due. He'll be judged accurately when he retires. And he is on one of the best teams around right now, so it's fun.

[AlphaWolf24]

Even the most die hard kobe fanatics tend to agree that Jordan > Kobe. Most of them are are just trying to push "Kobe top 5" or something along those lines, but somehow it always turns into Kobe vs Jordan.

Well, at least until this new AlphaWolf guy came along. He and his whole Kobe > Jordan, afro Kobe > Prime Shaq represent a whole new breed of Kobe fanatics.

yeah it's on ESPN but I'm the only one saying it...

I've been saying Kobe was going to win without Shaq since 06' all over the interwebz.....




next..

[#1SportsFan86]

To some people ( those with an agenda) Kobe would have to carry 14 absolute scrubs to a title before they will give him any credit. Eventhough no player in the history of the game has carried 14 scrubs to a title, Kobe would have to be the first, one and only. Kobe has done it all and yet those with an agenda will continue to try to belittle his accomplishments. No matter what he does, it's never enough of some people's eyes.

He's won titles as a first option, a 1A option and a second option. He carried a scrub filled roster ( Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Chucky Atkins and Luke Walton) to a playoff birth and a near upset in a stacked Western Conference at the time. He's not MVP worthy when he straps a bunch of scrubs on his back and he's not MVP worthy when he has talented players around him and leads them to multiple championships. Nothing is ever enough. Reason being? Agenda.

Stacked Western Conference?...the was wasn't even that stacked back in the 05-06 season...the Spurs, Mavs and Suns where the top teams in the west back then, the is west WAY stronger now then it was back in 05-06.

[crosso√er]

Other legends:

I wasn't talking about playoffs and I wasn't comparing Jordan, but I was talking about other greats. I think he probably isn't consider as impressive. Compare Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Shaq. Not only in their prime they pulled monster numbers in the regular season, they just had a different impact on the floor than Kobe. Nothing wrong with that. Kobe is his own player, and a different player than them. People hold that deal those guys more dear, and their legacies are already been done. So far, most of them had a better peak and prime than Kobe did. But I think you can debate about some, so whatever.


Jordan:
And with Jordan, I think some of Kobe's runs in the playoffs are comparable with old Jordan. That shows his mark as a player. While I don't think Kobe numbers are necessary better, they are comparable. There are also things that go on the floor that you would have to watch and everything that doesn't show on the stat sheet.

But again, it is 32-35ish Jordan you are comparing to Kobe's best playoffs runs. It shows how great Jordan was. Prime Jordan was crazy, and shows the gap between them.

Using the stats similar to your comparison of them:

Jordan:
34.8/7.0/7.6 .523% eFG
36.3/7.1/4.7 .533% eFG
34.5/6.2/5.8 .514% eFG
31.1/6.4/8.4 .537% eFG

Jordan wasn't human.

And there are more playoff runs that he did that were like that. Not to mention if you go into detail on his playoff series. He set the bar and records for many things.

But I don't want this to be Jordan vs Kobe thing. I want to talk about why Kobe isn't credited as greatly as other players.



Kobe doesn't have to be compared to them, but people are constantly being compared. And if you are talking about what place does Kobe have in the all time greats, then you must talk about them.

And I didn't say that Kobe doesn't have impact. I said that Kobe possibly does not have the impact that other legends had. And I think he is probably the best of his generation. He has an incredibly longitude. I thought he may have drop down already, but he is still one of the best.

Kobe is still one of the best and top 10 player. He gets his due. He'll be judged accurately when he retires. And he is on one of the best teams around right now, so it's fun.

I like your conclusion man, and it's so very true. I remember watching basketball in the 90's and even the late 80's and remember the same regurgitated debates. Fans insulting Jordan because Bird is their favorite and vice versa. A player is never as appreciated until he retires; once he finally sets sail, he will be fairly judged based on the career he had.

No point in comparing or arguing about who's better then whom; when the dust settles, Kobe will be appreciated a lot more from the general fan base. Only then can we fairly evaluate his place among the All-Time greats; he is not even remotely finished with his career, he can still accumulate quite a few more personal accolades & championship banners.

[icewill36]

Kobe's the only guy who gets the "Well if you replace him with so and so they'd still win" treatment. I love how people assume Vince Carter or T-Mac would have produced the same results, especially since everyone calls those players lazy and career underachievers, the exact opposite of Kobe Bryant.

no hes not... when people try to act like ginobili is elite, others remind them there are plenty of other guards who could have won titles on the spurs in his place.

theyre not underachievers in my eyes because they both have had serious injuries that hurt their progress and consistency as players. kobe has been fortunate to be apart of a great organization and that he hasnt had any serious knee or back injuries.

[Poochymama]

Kobe's the only guy who gets the "Well if you replace him with so and so they'd still win" treatment. I love how people assume Vince Carter or T-Mac would have produced the same results, especially since everyone calls those players lazy and career underachievers, the exact opposite of Kobe Bryant.

To be fair I think that's mainly because Shaq was just so damn good. It's very hard to find another player as good as Kobe that could be replaced by another player and that players team still win the championship.

You can do that with many lesser players to a certain extent. For example, you could probably replace Pippen on the Bulls 91-93 with several other players in the league and the Bulls still win. You could probably replace Gasol on these past few Lakers teams and still get a championship, but Gasol/Pippen are no Kobe, and it's considerably harder to do this for players of Kobe's caliber. Maybe replacing Wade on the current Heat?(if they figure things out and actually live up to the hype). IMO that's more of a testament to how great Shaq was than it is a knock on Kobe.

[Nero Tulip]

Horrible, lazy ass troll OP = 5 pages.

Only on ISH...

[Harion]

he should play with

AI's team when Sixers reached finals
Nash's team last year and the years they reached WCF
last year's Cavs
Nets with Jason Kidd when they reached FINALS

he should replace the main man on each team and see where he takes them.
if he wins, he'd deserve every credit that would be given to him. the problem is, Kobe on those teams would probably win jack shit. Kobe on a weak team would win nothing and would not even get past conference finals.

and ppl diss Lebron for failing on the Cavs. smh. Kobe on that team won't even get out 1st round.

[AlphaWolf24]

Other legends:

I wasn't talking about playoffs and I wasn't comparing Jordan, but I was talking about other greats. I think he probably isn't consider as impressive. Compare Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Shaq. Not only in their prime they pulled monster numbers in the regular season, they just had a different impact on the floor than Kobe. Nothing wrong with that. Kobe is his own player, and a different player than them. People hold that deal those guys more dear, and their legacies are already been done. So far, most of them had a better peak and prime than Kobe did. But I think you can debate about some, so whatever.


Jordan:
And with Jordan, I think some of Kobe's runs in the playoffs are comparable with old Jordan. That shows his mark as a player. While I don't think Kobe numbers are necessary better, they are comparable. There are also things that go on the floor that you would have to watch and everything that doesn't show on the stat sheet.

But again, it is 32-35ish Jordan you are comparing to Kobe's best playoffs runs. It shows how great Jordan was. Prime Jordan was crazy, and shows the gap between them.

Using the stats similar to your comparison of them:

Jordan:
34.8/7.0/7.6 .523% eFG
36.3/7.1/4.7 .533% eFG
34.5/6.2/5.8 .514% eFG
31.1/6.4/8.4 .537% eFG

Jordan wasn't human.

And there are more playoff runs that he did that were like that. Not to mention if you go into detail on his playoff series. He set the bar and records for many things.

But I don't want this to be Jordan vs Kobe thing. I want to talk about why Kobe isn't credited as greatly as other players.



Kobe doesn't have to be compared to them, but people are constantly being compared. And if you are talking about what place does Kobe have in the all time greats, then you must talk about them.

And I didn't say that Kobe doesn't have impact. I said that Kobe possibly does not have the impact that other legends had. And I think he is probably the best of his generation. He has an incredibly longitude. I thought he may have drop down already, but he is still one of the best.

Kobe is still one of the best and top 10 player. He gets his due. He'll be judged accurately when he retires. And he is on one of the best teams around right now, so it's fun.

Yes I understand what you are trying to say...But understand what I'm trying to say..

Kobe has been playing and winning for alot for Championship teams then MJ....up until Kobe's current age "32"...winning has to factor in somewhere

Your comparing MJ's prime in a totally different era....then you compared first 3 years of Finals Runs of MJ's....in that time frame your saying MJ's prime 21 - 32..Kobe has been to 7 NBA Finals...MJ only 3


Yes Prime MJ was crazy...but he wasn't "winning" on Kobe's level either...that has to factor in...

Kobe's winning alot more has to weigh heavier then MJ's 3 - 4 points a game a rebound and an assist.

Kobe has been a 28.5PPG 5ast 5reb player for over a decade....and 7 NBA Finals.....in that same time frame MJ had been to 3.....marginal stats should not be viewed as more of an impact then Winning IMO.


example:

Player A over 10 years = 28.5PPG 6reb 5AST /9 winning seasons , 7 NBA Finals and 5 Titles

Player B over 10 years = 31PPG 6reb 6ast/ 7 winning seasons 3 NBA Finals 3 Titles

Player A has a littler impact???....really?

[Poochymama]

I've been saying Kobe was going to win without Shaq since 06' all over the interwebz.....

A logical prediction, I think most people who really watched basketball at the time that Kobe's championship runs weren't going to end forever just because Shaq left. Kobe is a good enough player to have a team built around him as the best player and that team be of championship caliber.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Nash
Shannon Brown
Artest
Gasol
Bynum

Vs.

Dragic
Kobe
Marion
Amar'e
Lopez

Let us get a pick up game going and just study it.

[LA_Showtime]

no hes not... when people try to act like ginobili is elite, others remind them there are plenty of other guards who could have won titles on the spurs in his place.

theyre not underachievers in my eyes because they both have had serious injuries that hurt their progress and consistency as players. kobe has been fortunate to be apart of a great organization and that he hasnt had any serious knee or back injuries.

Are you really comparing Kobe and Ginobili? They aren't in the same class. I guess I should re-phrase and say Kobe's the only player in his tier to get that treatment.

Let's not act like Kobe hasn't had injuries of his own. His hand is a mess. He doesn't have any cartilage in his knees. I can understand T-Mac's injury woes but what exactly has Vince overcome? All I'm saying is people are quick to dismiss what he brought to the Lakers when in reality few players would have been able to do what he did.

[AlphaWolf24]

Nash
Shannon Brown
Artest
Gasol
Bynum

Vs.

Dragic
Kobe
Marion
Amar'e
Lopez

Let us get a pick up game going and just study it.

Kobe and Gortat = 3peat

[LA_Showtime]

To be fair I think that's mainly because Shaq was just so damn good. It's very hard to find another player as good as Kobe that could be replaced by another player and that players team still win the championship.

You can do that with many lesser players to a certain extent. For example, you could probably replace Pippen on the Bulls 91-93 with several other players in the league and the Bulls still win. You could probably replace Gasol on these past few Lakers teams and still get a championship, but Gasol/Pippen are no Kobe, and it's considerably harder to do this for players of Kobe's caliber. Maybe replacing Wade on the current Heat?(if they figure things out and actually live up to the hype). IMO that's more of a testament to how great Shaq was than it is a knock on Kobe.

I doubt here ANYONE saying "Well if you replaced Gasol with so and so the Lakers would have won anyway." You wanna know why? Gasol has been invaluable to what the Lakers have done over the past 3 seasons and few players could have duplicated what he brought to the team.

[bl2k8]

he should play with

AI's team when Sixers reached finals
Nash's team last year and the years they reached WCF
last year's Cavs
Nets with Jason Kidd when they reached FINALS

he should replace the main man on each team and see where he takes them.
if he wins, he'd deserve every credit that would be given to him. the problem is, Kobe on those teams would probably win jack shit. Kobe on a weak team would win nothing and would not even get past conference finals.

and ppl diss Lebron for failing on the Cavs. smh. Kobe on that team won't even get out 1st round.

ths shyt right here is exactly what the anti kobe movement does, argue what if's as facts to downplay him