"Kobe had Shaq and Gasol, plus he played on stacked teams"

[ginobli2311]

Rebounding just isn't part of defense. It impact offense just as much as it does defense, you can call it defense if you wan't but there's no more logical reason to call it defense then there is to call ball handling/turnovers.
On top of that he's a good rim protector, but he's not elite, and no where near it. He averages, what? Like 1.5 blocks a game, and he's not a guy who stops anybody before he really gets to the rim, he's just a reactionary rim protector. He also just can't defend the post at all, which has been blatantly obvious both times he played against KG in the finals.

securing the ball after a missed shot is absolutely part of defense. you don't get a defensive stop until you grab a rebound. just a fact. so you can't play good defense unless you rebound.

its not just about blocks. its about altering shots as well. gasol is very good at this.

nobody is calling gasol a defensive great. i'm saying his impact defensively is very positive on the whole.

[magnax1]

Gasol and Bynum switched on the Howard. Their length bother him. Gasol and Bynum did a very good job at protecting the paint last year in the NBA finals, and their team D is ok. It's more of their height and length that bother ppl. He's also a good def rebounded. He's not bad. He's no Garnett, Duncan, or anything. But he is a guy who can bother ppl.

Actually, that's exactly what Pau is. He's what a guy like Boozer would be if he was 7 foot tall on defense. Doesn't rotate well, doesn't make many smart defensive decisions, he's just tall and long.
And he's not a bad rebounder anymore. He's probably above average, though he always seems to throw out poor rebounding games when playing Duncan, Dwight, Dirk or one of the better bigmen.

[magnax1]

securing the ball after a missed shot is absolutely part of defense. you don't get a defensive stop until you grab a rebound. just a fact. so you can't play good defense unless you rebound.

Securing the ball after a missed shot is absolutely part of offense. You can't get a score until you get the rebound. just a fact. You can't play good offense unless you rebound.

its not just about blocks. its about altering shots as well. gasol is very good at this.

That's why I call it rim protection and not shot blocking.

nobody is calling gasol a defensive great. i'm saying his impact defensively is very positive on the whole

Coupled with another 7 footer, it's positive, but he's not a good defensive player. THey don't play that great of team defense but get away with it because they have 2 7+ foot shotblockers and Odom who is also really long and a pretty good shotblocker. Nobody is that great of a defender except maybe Bynum and Artest it's just the team as a whole with the pieces it has is much more then the sum of its parts.

[ginobli2311]

Securing the ball after a missed shot is absolutely part of offense. You can't get a score until you get the rebound. just a fact. You can't play good offense unless you rebound.

That's why I call it rim protection and not shot blocking.

Coupled with another 7 footer, it's positive, but he's not a good defensive player. THey don't play that great of team defense but get away with it because they have 2 7+ foot shotblockers and Odom who is also really long and a pretty good shotblocker. Nobody is that great of a defender except maybe Bynum and Artest it's just the team as a whole with the pieces it has is much more then the sum of its parts.

but you can score without rebounding. if the other team scores on you. which is about half the time when counting ft's. so no, its not the same thing.

you simply can't get a "stop" defensively without securing the rebound or forcing a turnover. so rebounding is absolutely part of defense. its called defensive rebounding for a reason.

LOL at trying to claim its just as big a part of offense. completely flawed logic.

[magnax1]

but you can score without rebounding. if the other team scores on you. which is about half the time when counting ft's. so no, its not the same thing.

It's still the same premise. When the ball is up for grabs, both on offense and defense you getting that ball will take a shot away from them and give it to you, making it affect offense and defense equally.
If both one team makes more shots that's part of offense/defense, not possession.

you simply can't get a "stop" defensively without securing the rebound or forcing a turnover. so rebounding is absolutely part of defense. its called defensive rebounding for a reason.

Rebounding is possession, it's really as simple as that. Because when you don't play the defense you get the ball back doesn't make rebounding any more part of defense, it just means when you don't play defense you have to work harder to setup your offense, or if you do play defense and don't rebound you don't setup you offense at all. Rebounding, and ball possession as a whole affects offense just as much as it does defense. If you want to chop off a part of that and call it defense, so be it, but it doesn't make sense.

[magnax1]

Basically what I'm saying is what you're saying is a moot point because it isn't even about rebounding. It's about defense/offense. Say two teams score at exactly 50% no turnovers, or threes or whatever else changes this scenario, but one team gets 40 rebounds and the other gets 30. So the 40 rebound team gets 10 more possessions on offense and the 30 team gets 10 less possessions on offense. It's equally affecting both sides of the floor. It's not about offense/defense it's a separate matter from both that affects both side equally.

[ginobli2311]

It's still the same premise. When the ball is up for grabs, both on offense and defense you getting that ball will take a shot away from them and give it to you, making it affect offense and defense equally.
If both one team makes more shots that's part of offense/defense, not possession.


Rebounding is possession, it's really as simple as that. Because when you don't play the defense you get the ball back doesn't make rebounding any more part of defense, it just means when you don't play defense you have to work harder to setup your offense, or if you do play defense and don't rebound you don't setup you offense at all. Rebounding, and ball possession as a whole affects offense just as much as it does defense. If you want to chop off a part of that and call it defense, so be it, but it doesn't make sense.

it does make sense. agree to disagree.

a defensive stop only occurs once you gain possession of the ball. this can be done by forcing a turnover or securing a rebound.

they go hand in hand.

offensive rebounding is absolutely part of offense....especially when discussing players. odom's or gasol's offensive rebounding is a huge part of their impact on offense.

we just see it in different ways.

[ginobli2311]

Basically what I'm saying is what you're saying is a moot point because it isn't even about rebounding. It's about defense/offense. Say two teams score at exactly 50% no turnovers, or threes or whatever else changes this scenario, but one team gets 40 rebounds and the other gets 30. So the 40 rebound team gets 10 more possessions on offense and the 30 team gets 10 less possessions on offense. It's equally affecting both sides of the floor. It's not about offense/defense it's a separate matter from both that affects both side equally.

but i could come up with a scenario in which gasol's defensive rebounding prevents the other team from getting 2nd chance points all game. often that is enough to determine the outcome of the game.

take the heat for example. often they give up a lot of offensive rebounds late in games. that is part of defense because they aren't stopping the other team. the team is getting multiple chances to score because of the poor defensive rebounding.

the defensive possession ends in a number of ways:

1. turnover
2. defensive rebound
3. made shot

being a great defensive rebounder limits the amount of chances the other team potentially has to score. what is defense? its preventing the other team from scoring. and securing defensive rebounds better than others prevents the opposing team from scoring on 2nd chance points.

[magnax1]

it does make sense. agree to disagree.

a defensive stop only occurs once you gain possession of the ball. this can be done by forcing a turnover or securing a rebound.

they go hand in hand.

offensive rebounding is absolutely part of offense....especially when discussing players. odom's or gasol's offensive rebounding is a huge part of their impact on offense.

we just see it in different ways.

But they're taking away from your offense when they gain possession of the ball and get an extra shot and you don't secure the rebound on defense. It's taking away from your offense, and defense, and adding to their offense and defense. To attribute that possession only to defense isn't really seeing it a different way, it just plain doesn't make sense.

[ginobli2311]

But they're taking away from your offense when they gain possession of the ball and get an extra shot and you don't secure the rebound on defense. It's taking away from your offense, and defense, and adding to their offense and defense. To attribute that possession only to defense isn't really seeing it a different way, it just plain doesn't make sense.

well. agree to disagree.

i've coached for over a decade and played in college and every single one of my coaches would preach that rebounding is part of defense. saying that:

"the defensive possession does not end until we have the ball"


its just semantics at this point. defensive rebounding is part of defense for me. just like offensive rebounding is part of offense for me. hence why they have their names.

[magnax1]

well. agree to disagree.

i've coached for over a decade and played in college and every single one of my coaches would preach that rebounding is part of defense. saying that:

"the defensive possession does not end until we have the ball"


its just semantics at this point. defensive rebounding is part of defense for me. just like offensive rebounding is part of offense for me. hence why they have their names.

I was always told that, but it just doesn't make logical sense. Not trying to be a dousche when I say that, but looking at it logically rebounding affects both sides of the floor equally, and is equally as important as either of them. And really that's the only reason I argue this, because looking at rebounding/possesion as part of defense/offense instead of an equal and separate category isn't a good way to judge a teams level of play.

[tpols]

securing the ball after a missed shot is absolutely part of defense. you don't get a defensive stop until you grab a rebound. just a fact. so you can't play good defense unless you rebound.

its not just about blocks. its about altering shots as well. gasol is very good at this.

nobody is calling gasol a defensive great. i'm saying his impact defensively is very positive on the whole.

Blocks are a great indicator of how many shots you're altering. Guys that block more shots almost always alter more shots than guys who don't block as many shots. They go hand in hand.

And of course Gasol's defensive impact is positive. Any 7 footer will have a positive defensive impact as long as he at least tries to play defense. But, Gasol is no better defensively than odom and he is worse than bynum.. he isn't a great defensive player.. The laker's great interior defense and reboundingcomes from the fact that they have 3 huge guys that are all solid defenders. Gasol isn't even the best defender of the group.

[ginobli2311]

I was always told that, but it just doesn't make logical sense. Not trying to be a dousche when I say that, but looking at it logically rebounding affects both sides of the floor equally, and is equally as important as either of them. And really that's the only reason I argue this, because looking at rebounding/possesion as part of defense/offense instead of an equal and separate category isn't a good way to judge a teams level of play.

and i understand that. its your opinion.

i, however, absolutely consider it a part of team and player defense to be a great defensive rebounder.

thats just me. that is why i keep saying agree to disagree. i'm watching the knicks game right now and they haven't secured any defensive rebounds late and are giving up points because of it. so that is impacting their ability to stop the magic from scoring. and that is what defense is....stopping the other team from scoring.

[ginobli2311]

Blocks are a great indicator of how many shots you're altering. Guys that block more shots almost always alter more shots than guys who don't block as many shots. They go hand in hand.

And of course Gasol's defensive impact is positive. Any 7 footer will have a positive defensive impact as long as he at least tries to play defense. But, Gasol is no better defensively than odom and he is worse than bynum.. he isn't a great defensive player.. The laker's great interior defense and reboundingcomes from the fact that they have 3 huge guys that are all solid defenders. Gasol isn't even the best defender of the group.

i agree with every single thing in this post.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Bynum is better at defending other big men. Gasol disrupts guards and small forwards from taking mid range shots. It's because of his length that makes him so hard to score on. Teams have to think of alternative ways of scoring when he is on the court. Like jacking 3's or praying for foul calls which is once and a blue moon when playing against LA.