Gary Payton has become insanely underrated

[oh the horror]

Also GP was very vocal on the court. Great leadership. He was always talking on both ends of the court.

And most of the time, probably talking alittle TOO fu*kin much on the court.

[D.J.]

And most of the time, probably talking alittle TOO fu*kin much on the court.

He made Bimbo Coles cry. Dead serious.

[Disaprine]

On this board, there has been so much talk of Nash and Kidd being top PG's of all-time that they have forgot a gentleman named Gary Payton. Payton in his prime was known for his efficient offense and lockdown defense, something rare for PG's.

Gary had very fast hands, was fast on his feet, and had very long arms where he could guard players 2-3 inches taller and do it very well. His shooting percentages took a fall once he had to score more points, but his defense remained excellent and he put up great numbers even into his 30s. At 31, he put up 24/9/6+. Even at 34, he was putting up 20/8/4 with almost two steals a night.

Gary remained a top PG 13 seasons into his career at age 34, which is not common. He's the only guard since '89 to win DPOY. He locked down many great guards and even did a good job on Michael Jordan. When people are comparing Kidd and Nash and placing them on all-time lists, Payton is basically ignored and that is a shame.

[GP_20]

I guess I need to start posting more on ISH again

[Mr Clutch Melo]

I guess I need to start posting more on ISH again

He baaaaaaack...

Shit just got serious

[Bigsmoke]

he defended MJ better than anybody IMO.

I thought he outplayed him in a few of those games but his efforts wasnt good enough :)

[Fatal9]

Not better than Nash. Only playoff series I'd take him over Nash is if there is some all-star PG matchup (even then it's a tough call), but otherwise it's Nash.

Generally not a fan of PGs who need to hold the ball as long as GP did to score (iso on postups, get in the paint etc), especially when you couple that with his inconsistent shot and overall inefficiency (52-54 TS%). PGs impact the game WAY more offensively than defensively (Magic says hi, same with Isiah). Look at what happened to the Sonics defensive rating after Kemp/Karl left, they were an average to below average team defensively. This is not centers we're discussing, who can come in and have a huge impact on the teams defense, this is PGs. Now look at the impact Nash has on his teams offensively, which have some of the best offensive ratings relative to league in history (and even with the poor cast he is given now, they are still top 5 in offense). Primary job of my PG is to run plays, create easy shots for everyone, stretch the floor with shooting, take over scoring wise (efficiently) when necessary and Nash blows GP out of the water with this. Nash's offensive impact on the average night is way more game changing and important than GP's defensive impact (overrated as fukk). GP is literally worse at everything other than holding the ball, posting up his guy and scoring that way. Never dominated a series on offense like Nash did against Spurs in '07 or Mavs in '05.

He's in my top 5 PGs, but quit overrating the dude. Funny though that the guy you're setting out to trash is probably the most underrated PG of all time. People think his defense hurts the team way more than it does, and even then when you look at opposing PG's production against him, it's not even bad. Not like TP or any PG he faced in the '04-'07 stretch torched him.

[Teanett]

Not better than Nash. Only playoff series I'd take him over Nash is if there is some all-star PG matchup (even then it's a tough call), but otherwise it's Nash.

Generally not a fan of PGs who need to hold the ball as long as GP did to score (iso on postups, get in the paint etc), especially when you couple that with his inconsistent shot and overall inefficiency (52-54 TS%). PGs impact the game WAY more offensively than defensively (Magic says hi, same with Isiah). Look at what happened to the Sonics defensive rating after Kemp/Karl left, they were an average to below average team defensively. This is not centers we're discussing, who can come in and have a huge impact on the teams defense, this is PGs. Now look at the impact Nash has on his teams offensively, which have some of the best offensive ratings relative to league in history (and even with the poor cast he is given now, they are still top 5 in offense). Primary job of my PG is to run plays, create easy shots for everyone, stretch the floor with shooting, take over scoring wise (efficiently) when necessary and Nash blows GP out of the water with this. Nash's offensive impact on the average night is way more game changing and important than GP's defensive impact (overrated as fukk). GP is literally worse at everything other than holding the ball, posting up his guy and scoring that way. Never dominated a series on offense like Nash did against Spurs in '07 or Mavs in '05.

He's in my top 5 PGs, but quit overrating the dude. Funny though that the guy you're setting out to trash is probably the most underrated PG of all time. People think his defense hurts the team way more than it does, and even then when you look at opposing PG's production against him, it's not even bad. Not like TP or any PG he faced in the '04-'07 stretch torched him.

i agree with this. payton is still one of the greats and one of my favourites.

[Teanett]

and while we're at it...
i believe that his dpoy was undeserved.
he was great at what he does (lock down guards one on one, steals, denying passes) but he didnt have the same defensive impact as admiral, dream, motumbo, pip or rodman that year.

[Premeditated]

Payton is extremely underrated. Good lockdown defender. He completely tormented Jordan during the 96 Finals. lol @ getting lock down by a point guard.

[Teanett]

Payton is extremely underrated. Good lockdown defender. He completely tormented Jordan during the 96 Finals. lol @ getting lock down by a point guard.

that is exaggerated crap.
he did a good job, but jordan still outplayed him, just not as bad as other opponents.

[Bigsmoke]

that is exaggerated crap.
he did a good job, but jordan still outplayed him, just not as bad as other opponents.

i'm too lazy to look at the boxscores but i think Payton outplayed MJ in game 4 when when he asked Karl to defend MJ and in game 6 where MJ was off the entire game.

I thought he gave us more problem than Penny did personally.

[BallsOut]

Also GP was very vocal on the court. Great leadership. He was always talking on both ends of the court.

Gary was also a vocal leader in the locker room as evidenced by this motivational speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYpB6J5-fm8

[Teanett]

i'm too lazy to look at the boxscored but i think Payton outplayed MJ in game 4 when when he asked Karl to defend MJ and in game 6 where MJ was off the entire game.

I thought he gave us more problem than Penny did personally.

game 4

MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Michael Jordan 41 6 19 .316 0 2 .000 11 13 .846 1 2 3 2 1 0 4 3 23
Gary Payton 44 7 15 .467 3 6 .500 4 6 .667 0 3 3 11 2 0 2 4 21


game 6


MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Gary Payton 47 7 10 .700 3 5 .600 2 2 1.000 0 4 4 7 2 0 5 3 19
Michael Jordan 43 5 19 .263 1 3 .333 11 12 .917 3 6 9 7 2 0 5 3 22

you can say he outplayed him in game 4, but jordan still got to the line and produced, and the bulls were already up 3-0.
payton played jordan as well as anyone but contrary to the myth, jordan still dominated the series and the match up with payton.

[GOBB]

I'm curious to why some posters feel a player is underrated if that player isnt mentioned recently. Especially a player from another era? Is Kevin Johnson insanely underrated? Dennis Johnson? John Stockton? Especially John, when was the last time this guy was typed out in a post here? Heck I dont even see anyone comparing him to a younger player.

There was a thread on here which ranked the top PGs of all time. Most agreed with how the Pgs ranked. Including GP. I'm just saying. Posters today will talk about Bron, Pierce, Melo but it doesnt mean Dr J is underrated because no one mentions him. Shaq will be mentioned as a great big men in NBA history, it doesnt mean Moses Malone is insanely underrated because he's rarely mentioned.