Why is MJ considered better than Bill Russell?

[L.Kizzle]

[QUOTE=jlip]I actually did research as to determine whether Russell's Celtics had an easier road to their titles in the playoffs than MJ's Bulls based upon the fact that there were fewer teams and a shorter post season and this is what I unconvered. Again, this is looking squarely at the championship seasons.

# of Championships
Russell's Celtics-11
Jordan's Bulls-6

Total Series Played
Russell's Celtics-25
Jordan's Bulls-24

Avg. series played per title
Russell's Celtics-2.3
Jordan's Bulls-4

Avg. games played per title
Russell's Celtics-13.4
Jordan's Bulls-19.3

If we were to stop right here it would appear that the Bulls definitely had a tougher road to the championship each year. They played nearly the same amount of series en route to 6 titles as the Celtics played en route to 11 titles. They also averaged more series and games played per title run. At this point the 6 titles do look to be at least as impressive as 11. But let

[jlip]

I know he only lost one game seven in the Finals, that was in his second season to the Hawks. The Celtics lost the division Finals to the Sixers in 5 games in 1967 I believe.

Russell is 10-0 in game sevens. He never lost one. The loss to the Hawks in 1958 was game 6 of the Finals and Russell was injured barely playing 20 minutes. He suffered a chip fracture in his ankle during the 3rd quarter of game 3 and had actually missed games 4 and 5 because of the injury. He was not expected to return for game 6 and really shouldn't have.

[Pointguard]

Russel should not have gotten the MVP at least in 1962.

He should not have gotten it in 1963 either. There was definitely politics involved. The players in the league didn't value defense and weren't into it. But miracoulosuly they unamiously honor the guy that was into it when Wilt had an offensive year that had a real dream state feel to it and 63 was just as impressive as 62 for Wilt. I don't see why professionals would honor defense and not find it worthy enough to incorporate it into their game.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Way less teams, so it was easier to get 5 all stars on one team, way less big men that could guard him. Really only Thurmond and Wilt could. Everyone else was a slow white guy.

Plus Russell played with multiple hall of famers. Jordan only played with one along with a few borderline all-stars like Kukoc, Grant, and Rodman. Russell was great, but he didn't win like MJ. He also wasn't as good a player, no matter how you look at it.

[L.Kizzle]

Plus Russell played with multiple hall of famers. Jordan only played with one along with a few borderline all-stars like Kukoc, Grant, and Rodman. Russell was great, but he didn't win like MJ. He also wasn't as good a player, no matter how you look at it.

For real??

[Pointguard]

My question is... If the players who played against him, the media who watched him, and the coaches that coached against him considered him the rightful MVP in 1962, under what credible authority do you claim that he should not have been the MVP that season?

It had more to do with who Wilt was dating. Wilt was 5th in the voting the next year, with an equally monstrous offensive year. Elgin Baylor, who was close to being defensively challenged at that time, was ahead of him. Petite and O were also ahead of him while Russell won. Wilt was at 44.8ppg 24.3regs with a record FG% efficeincy. Baylor was at 34ppg and 14 rebs and inferior on the boards. Baylor was 10ppg and 10rebounds below Wilt far less defensively and far less efficient. It wasn't about basketball.

[gts]

I know he only lost one game seven in the Finals, that was in his second season to the Hawks. The Celtics lost the division Finals to the Sixers in 5 games in 1967 I believe.

the loss to the st louis hawks was a 6 game series

russell never lost a game 7 playoff game 21 and 0...

[andgar923]

Again..... was he a better player than MJ?

[NoEasy9]

Again..... was he a better player than MJ?

If all you want to talk about is individual talent, then we mind as well call Wilt Chamberlain the greatest ever. Seriously, can anyone think of a more talented individual player than Wilt Chamberlain?

Team Accomplishments over Individual stats and accomplishments all day every day. That was what made Russell so successful.

[andgar923]

If all you want to talk about is individual talent, then we mind as well call Wilt Chamberlain the greatest ever. Seriously, can anyone think of a more talented individual player than Wilt Chamberlain?

Team Accomplishments over Individual stats and accomplishments all day every day. That was what made Russell so successful.

Wilt isn't better than MJ either, sorry.

And if we wanted to accept that, then MJ had more rings than Wilt and more talent than Bill, so......

Again.... as somebody mentioned earlier, the other player that has a more legit argument is Kareem.

[tpols]

Wilt isn't better than MJ either, sorry.

And if we wanted to accept that, then MJ had more rings than Wilt and more talent than Bill, so......

Again.... as somebody mentioned earlier, the other player that has a more legit argument is Kareem.

Going on numbers and play wilt dominated his era more than jordan did and was a more dominant player in general.

[NoEasy9]

Wilt isn't better than MJ either, sorry.

And if we wanted to accept that, then MJ had more rings than Wilt and more talent than Bill, so......

Again.... as somebody mentioned earlier, the other player that has a more legit argument is Kareem.

Based off of what? I love MJ, but he wasnt the more talented individual player than Wilt was. The only real thing that MJ did better than Wilt was shoot FTs. He wasnt a better passer, not a better scorer, not a better defender, and not a better rebounder...nor did he have the same impact as Wilt did...since MJ wasnt a big.

MJ revolutionized the game in the 80s and 90s, but he wasnt more individually talented than Wilt was.

[kizut1659]

It had more to do with who Wilt was dating. Wilt was 5th in the voting the next year, with an equally monstrous offensive year. Elgin Baylor, who was close to being defensively challenged at that time, was ahead of him. Petite and O were also ahead of him while Russell won. Wilt was at 44.8ppg 24.3regs with a record FG% efficeincy. Baylor was at 34ppg and 14 rebs and inferior on the boards. Baylor was 10ppg and 10rebounds below Wilt far less defensively and far less efficient. It wasn't about basketball.

exactly. Wilt just was not liked (and i can see why). This does not mean that Russel was a better or more valuable player or deserved to win an MVP. Again, if you just want to look at honors, Chamberlain was selected as NBA
1st team that year while Russel was 2nd team.

[Ne 1]

Going on numbers and play wilt dominated his era more than jordan did and was a more dominant player in general.

Agreed.

Wilt is simply more dominating. While Jordan fans are quick to point out Wilt's flaw (free throws), I can equally point out that Jordan was not that great of a 3 point shooter, unless the line is moved in (the league's attempt to help inferior players score more).

Jordan averaged 1 mores assist per game than Wilt during his career, and this is while he has been enjoying the luxury of looser rules governing assists. Had the rulebook been the same back then as it now, governing assists, this number would be even.

Jordan took more shots than Wilt, yet both averaged 30.1 ppg during their careers. As far as who was the better scorer, there is no question: During Wilt's first 7 years, he scored like no man in history. Jordan never had a 70+ point game. Wilt had 4. Jordan never averaged 38+ ppg for a season. Wilt did it 3 times.

Jordan was also much more selfish. When Wilt's coaches asked him to score, he did. When they asked him to sacrificed his scoring titles, he did. Jordan fought any attempt to cut back his shot attempts and led the league in field goal attempts a record 9 times (would be 10 if he played the entire '95 season.) Read about Jordan's spats with Phil Jackson and Doug Collins. Read about how he put down Tex Winter and the triangle! Even his own teammate Horace Grant said that Jordan cared more about his points than the team. If Wilt had that selfish attitude, there is no telling how many more points he would have. Also, if you take Wilt's scoring through the same number of career games, his scoring average is higher.

Wilt is a vastly superior rebounder, and while Jordan fans will point out that "Wilt should have more, since he is a center", I counter that Jordan should have a lot more assists, since he is a guard, but the numbers do not support him. Wilt is one of the greatest passers ever at center, but Jordan isn't as dominating at his position with respect to rebounds (Oscar and Magic, for instance, are both better rebounders). And while Jordan does have more 1st team all defensive selections, keep in mind that #1) the team wasn't created until Wilt's 10th year in the league and #2) Only one center is selected vs. 2 guards. If Jordan were the greatest defensive guard ever, there would be a point, but as long as Walt Frazier is remembered, Jordan could never be better than #2.

Jordan has also received the benefit of rules changes that have been implemented to help offensive players, such as well-defined rules concerning zones, rules against hand checking, and flagrant fouls. He's been spoiled by the luxuries given to the modern player, such as chartered planes, first class hotels, superior athletic shoes, and modern sports medicine (and he still hasn't approached Wilt's minutes per game!). Jordan has benefited from the joke that has become NBA officiating, in which superstars receive preferential treatment, and Jordan has probably received more than any player in history. The steps and the fouls he gets away with are ridiculous!

Consider also that Jordan benefited from the dilution of talent in the 1990s that came from expansion, giving him inferior talent to play against, compared to the 1980s. It is no coincidence that Jordan's teammate, Dennis Rodman, said that the 1996 Bulls could not have won 70 games playing against 1980s teams. While Jordan has many accomplishments, they cannot compare to Wilt's, and while the press and the Jordan radicals try to rationalize Wilt's numbers, as you can see, it's equally easy to rationalize Jordan's, and when it comes down to it, Wilt is still the most dominating player in history, and Jordan has never came close to threatening Wilt's 100 point game or 50.4 PPG average, and scoring is supposed to be Jordan's specialty, let alone Wilt's 8.6 APG in a season, or his rebounding numbers, or his 72.7% field goal percentage.

Finally, consider each player's ability to carry a team. Wilt came into the league and carried a bad team to immediate contention. He took the 1962 Warriors, not a great team, to the 7th game of the conference finals, where they lost by 2 points on a controversial call, to the champion Celtics. Jordan, on the other hand, came into the league and joined a losing team and after 3 years, they were STILL a losing team. He was 1-9 in the playoffs and posted 3 consecutive losing seasons. The truth is, Jordan played 5 seasons without Scottie Pippen and in each of those 5 seasons, he could not win more games than he lost, and in the final 2 years, he failed to get Washington to the playoffs. Yes, he was older than Wilt when Wilt retired, but Wilt played MANY more minutes, because Jordan retired 3 times. The fact is, without great teammates, Jordan was a loser. Wilt, on the other hand, could carry a poor team much farther than Jordan, showing just how much more dominant he was.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Based off of what? I love MJ, but he wasnt the more talented individual player than Wilt was. The only real thing that MJ did better than Wilt was shoot FTs. He wasnt a better passer, not a better scorer, not a better defender, and not a better rebounder...nor did he have the same impact as Wilt did...since MJ wasnt a big.

MJ revolutionized the game in the 80s and 90s, but he wasnt more individually talented than Wilt was.

I disagree regarding Jordan vs Wilt.

I think Jordan was a better scorer, I don't think it's a coincidence that despite playing in an era with far fewer shots that MJ's career playoff scoring average is 10.9 ppg higher than Wilt's, his highest scoring series are easily better than Wilt's, same with his highest scoring playoff runs.

Prime Wilt had a bigger impact defensively, IMO, but I think Jordan was the better offensive player.

And I also think that he impacted games at least as much, if not more, even with poor teammates, 3rd year MJ(who wasn't the player he was in his prime), carried his team to a 40-42 record. In one of his best individual years, Wilt's team was 31-49 and they missed the playoffs, and in '65, before he was traded to Philadelphia, I believe his Warriors were 11-33. I can't imagine prime Jordan leading teams to such poor records.

Agreed.

Wilt is simply more dominating. While Jordan fans are quick to point out Wilt's flaw (free throws), I can equally point out that Jordan was not that great of a 3 point shooter, unless the line is moved in (the league's attempt to help inferior players score more).

I think that by 1990 Jordan was a capable 3 point shooter. The only years that he took a significant amount with the normal line, he shot 35 and 38%, respectively. In 1990, he was 12th in 3s made and only 7 of the players who made more 3s than Jordan that year shot a better %. His mid-range shot was also visibly better in '92 than '90, so I wonder how good of a season he could've had shooting 3s had he taken them regularly that year.