Nique & G.O.A.T.

[aau]

Veron Maxwell was the guard I was thinkng about.Dude had game.

ohhhhh , you talking about on the rockets

ok

[G.O.A.T]

ULTIMATE HONORABLE MENTION

George Mikan

HIGH HONORABLE MENTION

arizin , cooper , guerin , clifton , dolph , stokes , kerr , lloyd
and don barksdale , the first black nba all star in 1953

Okay good start if were going to put the pre-shot clock stars in here. You also have to include Joe Fulks who pioneered the one hand jump shot, Bob Davies, who brought playground ball handling to the pro game and guys like George Yardley, Neil Johnston etc.

.

this is how i would rank the top 50 by position
(in order)

.

PG

1 magic ..... 5 frazier ..... 9 d j
2 oscar ..... 6 pearl
3 isiah ....... 7 tiny
4 cousy ..... 8 stock

Our top five are identical. Stockton is too low I think. The all-time assists and steals leader. Also Payton, Nash and Kidd have a strong case to be above Tiny and DJ. I got Pearl at the 2...His assist numbers were too low for me to look at him as a PG. He had amazing handle, but that aside, I see him as a 2.

SG

1 jordan ..... 5 pistol ....... 9 bing
2 kobe ....... 6 david
3 west ....... 7 drexler
4 gervin ...... 8 iverson

David Thompson can't be up that high. Same with Pistol and to some extent Gervin. Guys like Drexler and AI have accomplished so much more and if Dwyane Wade's career ended today, you're telling he hasn't done more and peaked higher than David Thompson?

C

1 kaj ............ 5 moses ....... 9 artis
2 russ .......... 6 hakeem ..... 10 walton
3 wilt ........... 7 reed
4 shaq .......... 8 cowens

Ewing over Gilmore. I think I'd put Nate Thurmond in there before Gilmore too.

David Robinson is #7 on my list, I can't see him lower than nine.

PF

1 duncan ........ 5 mcadoo ........ 9 j lucas
2 barkley ........ 6 big e
3 karl ............. 7 mchale
4 pettit .......... 8 haywood

I have Mac at center because his best years came playing that position. Either way he's a bit too high for me. Spencer Haywood shouldn't be in there. He was uber-talented, but give me Dave DeBusschere over him 100 times out of 100. I can't win with Haywood as my best player and he gets worse if he's not my best player. Also Dirk Nowitzki has to be included.

SF

1 dr. j .......... 5 pippen ........ 9 billy c
1 bird ........... 6 havcek ...... 10 bking
3 baylor ........ 7 nique
4 barry ......... 8 worthy

Bird's MVP's and rings separate him clearly from Doc. But I can see why you'd find it hard to say Bird was better.

Lebron has already done more than everyone outside the top six on the list.


Overall, it's not that far from mine, you have a lot of guys from the 70's (guessing that's your era) in their that I don't think measure up and you've left out a lot of guys from the last 15-20 years who I think are commonly included.

[Niquesports]

Okay good start if were going to put the pre-shot clock stars in here. You also have to include Joe Fulks who pioneered the one hand jump shot, Bob Davies, who brought playground ball handling to the pro game and guys like George Yardley, Neil Johnston etc.

.

this is how i would rank the top 50 by position
(in order)

.



Our top five are identical. Stockton is too low I think. The all-time assists and steals leader. Also Payton, Nash and Kidd have a strong case to be above Tiny and DJ. I got Pearl at the 2...His assist numbers were too low for me to look at him as a PG. He had amazing handle, but that aside, I see him as a 2.



David Thompson can't be up that high. Same with Pistol and to some extent Gervin. Guys like Drexler and AI have accomplished so much more and if Dwyane Wade's career ended today, you're telling he hasn't done more and peaked higher than David Thompson?




Ewing over Gilmore. I think I'd put Nate Thurmond in there before Gilmore too.

David Robinson is #7 on my list, I can't see him lower than nine.



I have Mac at center because his best years came playing that position. Either way he's a bit too high for me. Spencer Haywood shouldn't be in there. He was uber-talented, but give me Dave DeBusschere over him 100 times out of 100. I can't win with Haywood as my best player and he gets worse if he's not my best player. Also Dirk Nowitzki has to be included.



Bird's MVP's and rings separate him clearly from Doc. But I can see why you'd find it hard to say Bird was better.

Lebron has already done more than everyone outside the top six on the list.


Overall, it's not that far from mine, you have a lot of guys from the 70's (guessing that's your era) in their that I don't think measure up and you've left out a lot of guys from the last 15-20 years who I think are commonly included.

The 3 of us are all close mixing a player here and a player there. My question to you G.O.A.T. You say replace TIny and D J with Nash or Kidd. YOur the main person always saying how important winning is. Both Tiny and Dj were focal players on winning teams,DJ on 2,.Both Tiny and DJ were much better defenders than Nash and both were more explosive offensive players than Kidd. Nash 2 questionable MVP's do little for me to put him over 2 second option championship players.
Im not sold a Dave Deb.sound player that benifitted from playing with the Knicks teams.I don't think his peak matches Haywood's when Dave was a Piston.
I'm kinda like aau about rating todays players. Its one thing for players that have reached their peak and are kinda in the twlight of their career i.e. Duncan,Shaq,to a degree even Kobe and Dirk. But Wade Lebron still have a big upside. Also many players are ranked not so much by their peak but by how much of a drop there was from getting to their peak and after they reached their peak.So its unfair to rank a incomplete player's career to a complete player's career.

[jlauber]

Number of All-Star teammates Wilt played with: 24

Number of All-Star teammates Russell played with: 26

That's all-star games selected to in seasons where they were teammates.

But yes, the Celtics played a team style which resulted in a greater dispersal of points.

I'll save myself a ton of time, and do a copy-and-paste from another one of my posts...

Let's take a look at their respective rosters in Wilt's rookie season...

Wilt did have ONE legitimate great teammate, Paul Arizin, but to say that he was in his prime is to say that almost all of Russell's HOF teammates were in their prime. Arizin was 31 in Wilt's rookie season, and was done by age 33.

You always bring up Wilt's HOF teammates, much like Bill Simmons, but you never put them in proper context. Wilt's other "HOF" teammate in that 59-60 season? The "great" Tom Gola. As I have stated many times, Gola was a CAREER 11.3 ppg, 7.8 rpg, .431 shooter. In his BEST season, he averaged 15.0 ppg, 10.4 rpg, and shot .433. I don't care how good a teammate he was, he was NOT a HOFer.

That reminds of those posters who point out the "fact" that Wilt had two All-Star teammates on his horribel 62-63 roster. Tom Meschery and Guy Rodgers. C'mon! Meschery was a ONE-TIME all-star, who DID play his BEST with Wilt...but 16.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, and .425 shooting is NOT all-star level. As for Rodgers...quite possibly the WORST shooter in NBA history (a career .378 shooter, who NEVER once shot 40% in a season.) And before someone compares his shooting with Cousy...Cousy shot considerably better against the NBA league average, than Rodgers did. How bad a shooter was Rodgers? He had one season in which the league average was .446...and he shot .347!

So, we now KNOW that Chamberlain played with only ONE quality player in his rookie season. How about Russell in that 59-60 season? Sharman, Cousy, Heinsohn, Ramsey, Sam Jones, and KC Jones...ALL in the HOF. Two of those players were over 30...Cousy at 31, and Sharman at 33. So, here again, if Arizin was in his "prime" then so was Cousy. Now, if you want to argue that Ramsey and KC Jones are as questionable as Gola, fine. I will say that Ramsey was a better offensive player than Gola, and KC Jones was probably a better defensive player.

And of those seven players, only KC Jones averaged less 10 ppg in that 59-60 season. And along with Russell,...Ramsey, Sharman, Cousy, and Heinsohn all averaged over 15 ppg.

And, as bad as Wilt's teammates were, even those two "stars", Arizin and Gola, played horribly in their three post-seasons with Wilt. In Arizin's last two playoff seasons, he shot .328 and .375. In Gola's last three post-seasons with Wilt, he shot .412, .206, and .271. Yep, he was a HOFer alright.

So, as you can plainly see, Russell had a HUGE edge in surrounding talent. And that trend would continue until the mid-60's, when Wilt was traded to the Sixers. BUT, even THEN, Russell had more HOF teammates EVERY season until he retired.

And YOU know, as well as I, that, not only did Russell have more HOF teammates, he played with them MUCH longer. For those that have never read this before, Russell played alongside quailty teammates, TWICE as many minutes in his career, than Chamberlain...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4229


Quote:
"Now you can see Russell's "score" is more than twice that of Wilt,"

"Obviously this is just a fun exercise, and far from scientific, but you can still see that Chamberlain's teammates were in fact significantly less talented than Russell's, by both our Quality of Teammates metric and even by Bill Simmons' own ranking method. So I don't think it's quite fair to say, "let's never mention the supporting-cast card again with Russell and Chamberlain," because it's still pretty obvious that Wilt's supporting cast was inferior to Russell's by a good margin."


Furthermore, the idiotic Simmons says that Wilt played with nearly as many HOF teammates as Russell in his career. That is such a stretch of the truth. While Russell played alongside HIS HOF teammates for anywhere from six to 12 years, how about Wilt? Let's see...Chamberlain played with the great Nate Thurmond...ONE season...Thurmond's rookie year. AND, Nate was playing 26 mpg, and mostly out of position (he played PF that year...and he was a HOF center). Not only that, but he shot .395 from the field.

Then there was Gail Goodrich. OK,...except that Russell had retired by the time Goodrich played with Wilt. Furthermore, Wilt played with Goodrich for TWO seasons.

Simmons also loves to bring up Baylor. After all, Elgin played on Wilt's teams for four seasons. EXCEPT, that Wilt was injured for nearly all of one of them (69-70), while Baylor played in TWO early season games in 70-71, and then "retired" after nine games in the 71-72 season (and not surprisingly, the Lakers immediately won 33 straight games, en route to a title.) And even in the season that Wilt missed 70 games, Baylor missed 28. On top of all of that, Baylor was well past his prime...and like Arizin and Gola, he was AWFUL in his post-seasons in the seasons he played with Wilt. In their ONE "full" season together, 68-69, Baylor averaged 15.3 ppg on .385 shooting in the post-season.

Then there was Jerry West. Wilt and West played together for five seasons. While West missed a ton of games in those years, he at least played considerably more than Baylor. Still, West missed the entire last fourth of the 70-71 season, including the playoffs...which left Chamberlain without BOTH West and Baylor in the playoffs that year. He also missed 21 games in their inaugural season together (68-69), eight games in the year in which Wilt missed 70, and 13 games in Wilt's last season (72-73.) The only year in which West was reasonably healthy, the 71-72 season, the Lakers won the title. Of course, West had the worst shooting slump of his entire post-season career that year...but, fortunately for LA, Wilt dominated in the playoffs, and won the Finals MVP.

But, even if you are going to use West and Baylor in the Russell-Wilt debates...those two only played with Wilt, and against Russell, for ONE season (that 68-69 year.)

So that leaves Wilt's HOF teammates in his 3 1/2 years with the Sixers (from halfway thru the 64-65 season thru the 67-68 season.) Cunningham did not join Philly until the 65-66 season, and was awful in the post-season that year, shooting .161 in the playoffs. He also broke his wrist in the first round of the playoffs in the 67-68 season, and missed the ECF's, when Philly lost a game seven, by four points, to the Celtics.

The ONLY HOF teammate that Wilt could count on EVERY year he played with him, was Hal Greer, whom he played alongside for all three-and-half years in Philadelphia. BUT, even Greer had a meltdown in the '66 ECF's, when he shot .325. And, in game seven of the '68 ECF's, he shot 8-25 from the floor. Still, overall, Greer was a great player when he was paired with Wilt.

Chamberlain also played alongside both Chet Walker and Luke Jackson in those 3 1/2 years, and while both had injury or shooting slumps in the post-season, they were exceptionally good players. But, if you are going to include them in any discussion about quality teammates, then you can argue that Russell had Bailey Howell, a HOFer and a deadly 20 ppg scorer in his Celtic years, and Satch Sanders, whom many regarded as one of the best defensive forwards of his era.

And, of course, Russell had those others. Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Jones, Jones, Ramsey, and Havlicek...and for MANY years. Furthermore, Sam Jones and Havlicek were legitimate 25-30 ppg scorers in their careers, and in fact, Havlicke had a season AFTER Russell, in which he averaged 28.9 ppg.

On top of those players, Russell also had Lovelette and Embry...both in the HOF...as well as players like Don Nelson, Larry Siegfried, and even Don Chaney.

Once again, Russell enjoyed an edge in HOFers, in Wilt's first six years, by margins of 7-3, 7-3, 6-3, 8-1, 7-2, and 5-2. Even in his last four years he had margins of 4-3, 6-3 (in a year in which Philly destroyed them in the ECF's, 4-1), 5-3 (and it was 5-2 in the ECF's, as Cunningham missed the entire series), and 4-3 (and as always, a much deeper bench.)

Now, do you still want to say that Wilt played with the same number of "prime" HOFers as Chamberlain? That was completely ridiculous. Russell had an overwhelming edge in talent in the vast majority of his H2H seasons with Wilt, and an edge in EVERY season.

[G.O.A.T]

I'll save myself a ton of time, and do a copy-and-paste from another one of my posts...

Don't waste your time, in less than 100 characters all your opinions are cast aside in favor of facts.

Wilt had 24 all-star teammates, Russell had 26.

Wilt played with more 1st team all-NBA guys from 60-69 etc.

I even think Russell had better teammates, I'm just not ignorant enough to pretend it was some major gap.

It really makes it hard for me to enjoy the other great conversations I have with you sometimes, you're absolute refusal make more accurate your Wilt-Russell arguments.

[jlauber]

Don't waste your time, in less than 100 characters all your opinions are cast aside in favor of facts.

Wilt had 24 all-star teammates, Russell had 26.

Wilt played with more 1st team all-NBA guys from 60-69 etc.

I even think Russell had better teammates, I'm just not ignorant enough to pretend it was some major gap.

It really makes it hard for me to enjoy the other great conversations I have with you sometimes, you're absolute refusal make more accurate your Wilt-Russell arguments.

One more time...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4229

"Now you can see Russell's "score" is more than twice that of Wilt,"

"Obviously this is just a fun exercise, and far from scientific, but you can still see that Chamberlain's teammates were in fact significantly less talented than Russell's, by both our Quality of Teammates metric and even by Bill Simmons' own ranking method. So I don't think it's quite fair to say, "let's never mention the supporting-cast card again with Russell and Chamberlain," because it's still pretty obvious that Wilt's supporting cast was inferior to Russell's by a good margin."

[G.O.A.T]

One more time...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4229

Your post is a made up formula

Mine are real numbers of an established NBA measuring stick.

But good try.

Just like when Simmons makes up his own criteria and you laugh at it, well guess what my response is to the 17th time I see you posting that...

[PHILA]

Speaking of Doug Colllins...how good could Raymond Lewis have been?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyQf_HUpKYw

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial][COLOR=#000000]
Michael Cooper Versus Raymond Lewis:[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial][COLOR=#000000]
In 1983, during a summer pro league game, it was NBA star Michael Cooper, against Raymond Lewis, the legend of the playgrounds. Raymond scored 56 points that night in only three quarters of play.[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT]

[aau]

I hope you have lots of veggies for lunch.Good for the body.
Pettie as I said gets my HM with Milkan,CousySherman ect..
As well as Pettie numbers are look at Hayes as a "Rookie" he was selected a starter in the All Star game over Wilt.
I have never been sold on Pistol. Sure he could do it had made game but it never helped his team . I have read early in his career as a Hawk the old school guys didnt like him Like Lou Hudson.I love Iverson never saw a player play with so much heart but Pistol is a AI with less heart. Now Sam Jones I ask old heads they say him and Lenny Wilkins were all that.My father played against Lenny and he said he was crazy good. MY father played in Elgin's era so for him to say that lets you know how good Lenny must have been.

veggies??!! . . . . lmao

if it ain't burgers - chili cheese fries - pastrami quesedillas
hot dogs , tacos or chicken fried rice , , , i ain't havin it
probably the most unhealthiest cat you ever crossed

.

how can you say a guy with pettit's resume deserves
just an honorable mention . . . . dude was a beast
big e was aight with the b2b turnaround jumpers

don't want to downgrade y'boy - he could play
just wasn't athletic enough for my liking
shooting 42-44% doesn't help either
that's horrible for a guy playing
that close to the basket

pettit didn't shoot that much better a percentage
but he mostly played on the perimeter and was
one of the first big guys to actually shoot a
conventional jumpshot and , , was one of
the hardest working dudes to ever play

"bob made second effort a part of sports vocabulary"
- bill russell

coming out of college nobody thought he was good
enough to play in the league ,,, but he of course
proved them wrong (gotta love guys like that)

.

"pistol was good but it never helped his team"

that's because his teams were never that good
it's amazing how jordan never catches crap for
this but everybody else is held to it like velcro

pete's first year the best player on his team was
lou hudson and the best big man was a 10th
year walt bellamy . . . they won 36 games
basically this was his team first 4 years

was traded to the jazz in 75 and scored 1700 points
the next highest scorer was aaron james with 887
- you wanna hold this against him

ever heard of nate williams . . . i know , me neither
he was the 2nd leading scorer the following year
the year after that pete led L in scoring 31.1
the next guy , nate again with 974 points

never had a legit big man , never played with another
compelling player , , you can't hold this against him

those cats didn't like him because his skills were otherworldly
no , he wasn't the most unselfish guy in the world
but when you're the first of your kind

who is

.

were you aware that sam jones never made 1st all nba

[Niquesports]

As far as Sam goes playing in a era of O n west hurt any chance he had.From my perspective Pistol nev er learned how to be ateam player.He was always the show. His father did,t help.If I was putting together a all fun toi see team Pistol would be on it.

[aau]

GOAT

great stuff

i don't know much about those pre-shot clock guys you
mentioned but i'm with you on adding them to H M list

.

stockton (all time steals & assists leader) over pearl

i can see your argument there , but for me
pearl was just too much for this dude

ROY - avg 24 including 56 vs the lakers . . his
24ppg was 3rd highest rookie average in L H
scored nba record 13 points in a single OT

led bullets from worst to first in 68-69 season - - traded
to ny forming the "Rolls Royce" backcourt with frazier
became first backcourt combo to have 2 HOFers
and both players named to 50th Anniv. team

jersey retired by 2 teams - - even had an aba team
named after him . . . . . . . the baltimore pearls

stockton was good , , , very very good

pearl was GREAT

.

payton nash and kidd over tiny and dj

back to back finals appearances with a FMVP
3 rings total and the glue on those
celtic championship teams

"the best player i've ever played with"
- larry bird

"the best lead and defend guard of his era"
- NBA Enc.

one of the top postseason performers in L H
playoff heroics earned reputation as
"money player"

lenny wilkens replaced bill russell as sonics coach
traded slick watts and inserted dj at the point
along with gus wms , the team immediately
went on a 12 game winning streak and
finished 47-35 after a 5-17 start

took out previous year division champ lakers before
squandering 3-2 lead vs the bullets in 78 finals
led team back to the finals the following year
scored 32 in G4 OT and was named FMVP

lost to LA in WCF in 1980 was then traded to phoenix
and in his first year there led the suns to division
title over the defending champ lakers

traded to boston in 84 - hit buzzer beater in G4 of
finals in LA - celtics went on to win the title his
first year with the team . . . . . . coincidence
i think not

you might can sell me on those guys being over tiny
but no way would i ever take them over dennis

"clutch" personified . . . . . true winner

.

what has drexler or ai ever accomplished

and wade's lone title rivals duncan's 99 title as thee most
least impressive titles ever . . . there was no way in hell
stern was going to hand that trophy to cuban after
having to fine him like a million times that season

.

david thompson

"the most spectacular leaper and scorer in league
history . . . . . only Dr. J was more explosive"
- NBA Enc.

at one time the highest paid player in the history of
team sports . . . when dunking was outlawed in
college basketball he invented the 'alley-oop'

played in very last aba finals vs Dr. J , the most exciting series
in league's 9 year history , and possibly basketball period

scored 73 , the 3rd highest point total in L H , , led denver to
division title his first year avg 26 . . . #1 all star vote getter

shattered a backboard dunking over bill walton

#1 draft pick in both leagues in 75 , , signed a then record
4 million $ 5 year contract and in 1978 became the
first player named ASG MVP in both leagues

introduced into HOF by michael jordan

"david thompson was my role model as a young man
he was the guy i looked up to when i was your age"
- jordan to his campers

.

the guy you named that i can most agree with is dirk
he's sitting on like 22k points right now . . . if he
averages 25 over the next 4 years he hits 30k
at 32 years old he looks stronger than ever

.

as for lebron

i've never seen a guy with so little be revered so much

but these are the times we live in

.

disagree with you on doc and bird

but won't belabor the point

[PHILA]

ow Sam Jones I ask old heads they say him and Lenny Wilkins were all that.

How about Hal Greer? Perhaps the most underrated guard to ever play.



'Entering his eleventh NBA season in 1968-69, Greer had already established himself as one of the deadliest middle-distance shooters in the league, averaging over 20 points a game and climbing to number six on the all-time scoring list with 15,244 points. In 1967-68, he had even managed to overtake the offensively explosive Wilt Chamberlain for the Philadelphia team lead in scoring with a gaudy 24.1 average. "He was one of the finest open-court shooters I ever saw, for he could race down court, stop on a dime twenty feet out on the dead run and bury the shot," teammate Chet Walker later admiringly wrote.

Greer accomplished these feats despite having to endure an array of nagging injuries that might have sidelined a lesser player. "Harold would have his ankles taped," Billy Cunningham later remembered. "Then he'd have a knee brace on and a thigh pad and another pad on his elbow. He never got the attention he deserved, and maybe that was because he was a quiet man who wouldn't sit in the locker room and tell the press how he performed. He let his performance speak for itself." Sometimes, however, his performance was so spectacular that even his unalluring personality could not diminish his on-court achievements. A case in point was the 1968 NBA All-Star Game when Greer went 8 for 8 from the field while scoring a record 19 points in the third quarter. He came away with the Most Valuable Player honors along with the deep respect of his peers. "Hal needs a certain amount of recognition to show people that he's on par with Robertson and West," All-Star teammate Wilt Chamberlain said afterward.

Greer needed no convincing himself. He knew he was the equal of any elite guard in the league, and that included Sam Jones of the Celtics. "He's on a team where they work for him," Greer said. "Our team is balanced. We're a team all the way. We don't work for one guy. Sam doesn't really have to work for his shots. They work for him. He's strictly offense, I'm offense plus I move the ball, too. I move on the fast break." Always intense and demanding of himself as a player, Greer strove for nothing short of basketball perfection in every contest. "After a game," he once revealed, "I think about the mistakes I made on defense that night. Sometimes I stay up all night thinking about defense, like after I've been chasing Oscar all over the court. That's enough to keep any man awake."'

[Niquesports]

I my with you on DJ. And Tiny. Never understood why DJ is so underrated. A star on 3 different teams,with a different role on each. Tiny lead the league in scoring and Assist, that's more impressive than even Oscars tripple double then after injuries come to Boston and quterbacks them to a final. People have no problem Mchale in a Top list but DJ was as important and Tiny was more important than Mchle was in Boston's success.

[G.O.A.T]

I my with you on DJ. And Tiny. Never understood why DJ is so underrated. A star on 3 different teams,with a different role on each. Tiny lead the league in scoring and Assist, that's more impressive than even Oscars tripple double then after injuries come to Boston and quterbacks them to a final. People have no problem Mchale in a Top list but DJ was as important and Tiny was more important than Mchle was in Boston's success.

I have to say you guys are really making me rethink the PG rankings.

Guys like Nash, Kidd and Payton just assembled such amazing resumes through having such long primes and long careers overall. It's hard to look at their individual resume next to Tiny and DJ and not favor the younger guys.

However when I ask myself the critical questions

1) Who was the better player?

2) Who's accomplishments are the most significant?

Other than Nash's two MVP's I think Tiny and DJ are the answer's to those questions.

The thing about Nash's MVP's is that while I don't think he deserved either, the fact that he was a worthy enough candidate to win the award twice says a lot. I hate to give him credit there, but I have to.

The other issue is that neither Archibald or Johnson had nearly as much team success as a #1 guy during their peak. If I keep them below that younger generation, ultimately that will be why.

[Niquesports]

I have to say you guys are really making me rethink the PG rankings.

Guys like Nash, Kidd and Payton just assembled such amazing resumes through having such long primes and long careers overall. It's hard to look at their individual resume next to Tiny and DJ and not favor the younger guys.

However when I ask myself the critical questions

1) Who was the better player?

2) Who's accomplishments are the most significant?

Other than Nash's two MVP's I think Tiny and DJ are the answer's to those questions.

The thing about Nash's MVP's is that while I don't think he deserved either, the fact that he was a worthy enough candidate to win the award twice says a lot. I hate to give him credit there, but I have to.

The other issue is that neither Archibald or Johnson had nearly as much team success as a #1 guy during their peak. If I keep them below that younger generation, ultimately that will be why.

I have to respect you G.O.A.T. you are open to at least review yoour think if a point is made that you feel is valid.I don't think Tiny had the chance to have the team success that nash had.Injuries and bad teams prevented this.However Tiny did have much better team success than Nash as a No. 2.Also If you take Tiny's 72-73 Season is better than anything Nash has ever done.
Now for DJ for the most part most would believe he was the No 1 for Seattle thats a team that made 2 finals and won 1 and made a third WCF.There was a drop in his Suns days in overall play and team success,however once he came back to Boston he became a more of a pure PG and his Defense alone makes him better than Nash.Tiny gets his due often most have him in a top 10 - 15 PG so I'm kool he is in my top 10. However too often DJ is a forgotten Great which I can't understand. Not sure why the PG of the team some want to call the Greatest team ever doesnt get more credit.
But everyting is opinion based so as long as you are open to the thought I respect that.