What is Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami's big 3 in the finals?

[barbaroi]

Sorry, I have posted here before but lost my account info.

But I don't see how you (presumably a Kobe/Lakers fan) can explain away a 6-24 performance in a Finals Game 7. The only difference between Kobe and guys like Dirk and Lebron are his teammates (although Lebron no longer has this excuse).

Eh, that game was all defense:
Rondo - 14 points on 13 shots
Ray - 13 points on 14 shots
Sheed - 11 points on 11 shots
Artest - 20 points on 18 shots
Gasol - 19 points on 16 shots
Odom - 7 points on 8 shots
Kobe - 23 points on 24 shots

Basically every player in that game was scoring about 1 point per shot. Kobe's performance was not out of line with the game at all.

[thomaspynchon]

Well, the thread title starts from a wrong standpoint:

either its Kobe vs Lebron or its Kobe AND Gasol vs the Big Three

Kobe 's nutters make it sound as if it were Kobe standing up against the whole Miami team on his own and THAT FAILS

Yeah I was thinking this as well. The last time Kobe played without a legit star, he was busy choking against the Suns.

[tpols]

Yeah I was thinking this as well. The last time Kobe played without a legit star, he was busy choking against the Suns.

And the last time lebron played without a legit star, he was choking against the Celtics.

[thomaspynchon]

Eh, that game was all defense:
Rondo - 14 points on 13 shots
Ray - 13 points on 14 shots
Sheed - 11 points on 11 shots
Artest - 20 points on 18 shots
Gasol - 19 points on 16 shots
Odom - 7 points on 8 shots
Kobe - 23 points on 24 shots

Basically every player in that game was scoring about 1 point per shot. Kobe's performance was not out of line with the game at all.

True. But he had about 2 good games that series, 2-3 atrocious ones, and 2 decent ones. He wouldn't even have gotten to that point if not for his great teammates. In fact, he wouldn't have made it out of the first round if not for his great teammates.

I'm not trying to "hate" here but this is what I see as the truth. No one else last season had the luxury of stringing together bad games and still winning, except Tim Duncan.

[thomaspynchon]

And the last time lebron played without a legit star, he was choking against the Celtics.

Yeah, I don't think that much of LeBron. He has no heart at all.

[ginobli2311]

His legacy is what it is right now, the best player of his generation easily.

LOL. love the absurd use of "easily"

shaq and duncan are both easily the best players of this generation dude.
you would think in 12,000 plus posts you would know that.

kobe's peak doesn't even remotely compare to the dominance of shaq and duncan.

damn ISH ignores reality so much when it comes to Kobe.

[04mzwach]

Pau Gasol should start getting some mention as a great player if they beat the Heat.

[jlauber]

Sorry, I have posted here before but lost my account info.

But I don't see how you (presumably a Kobe/Lakers fan) can explain away a 6-24 performance in a Finals Game 7. The only difference between Kobe and guys like Dirk and Lebron are his teammates (although Lebron no longer has this excuse).

I get a kick out of posts like these...

Kobe had a bad SHOOTING night in that game seven. His teammates were of no help, and continually looked to Kobe to make the shots. In the meantime, Kobe's determination and grit, with his 15 rebounds and great defense, kept LA in the game...and the Lakers were champions.

How did Kobe do in the previous rounds? How did Kobe do in the San Antonio series throughout his career? Why is it that Kobe had FOUR post-seasons of over 30 ppg, and SEVEN higher than Bird's BEST scoring post-season?

And does anyone actually believe that Kobe will be remembered for demanding a trade a few years ago? Or for getting traded in his rookie year?

Do you think that Jordan is going to be remembered for his 5-19 shooting game in the Finals? Do you think that Jordan is going to be remembered for playing on five losing teams? Or that he basically quit in the Piston series in the late 80's? Or that he could barely get off the floor in his last two years? Or that he has been a horrible GM?

Kobe will go down in history as one of the greatest NBA players EVER. He will probably finish somewhere close to MJ, as well. Let's just get real here.

[chazzy]

Sorry, I have posted here before but lost my account info.

But I don't see how you (presumably a Kobe/Lakers fan) can explain away a 6-24 performance in a Finals Game 7. The only difference between Kobe and guys like Dirk and Lebron are his teammates (although Lebron no longer has this excuse).

Yeah he was pretty bad. Looked like he was pressing, but I thought he played ok down the stretch. But you stated:

1. Lakers win more often in spite of Kobe, which is just a flat out lie. There's no backing to this, unless you think every Laker game is like that Game 7.

2. Kobe's legacy will be that of someone who so thoroughly trashed his teammates, ownership, and organization (admitted implicity he wasn't good enough) that he was able to receive an illicit trade that was able to get him championships. Which just isn't true either. The only people who still think that are the morons who are stuck in 2007 and turned a blind eye to what he's done in the past 3 years because of a "rigged trade."

He wouldn't even have gotten to that point if not for his great teammates.

And you can say that about pretty much every great player. This "stacked supporting cast" knock is getting old.

[thomaspynchon]

Yeah he was pretty bad. Looked like he was pressing, but I thought he played ok down the stretch. But you stated:

1. Lakers win more often in spite of Kobe, which is just a flat out lie. There's no backing to this, unless you think every Laker game is like that Game 7.

2. Kobe's legacy will be that of someone who so thoroughly trashed his teammates, ownership, and organization (admitted implicity he wasn't good enough) that he was able to receive an illicit trade that was able to get him championships. Which just isn't true either. The only people who still think that are the morons who are stuck in 2007 and turned a blind eye to what he's done in the past 3 years because of a "rigged trade."

Correct me if I am wrong, but did he not shoot extremely poorly against the Thunder?

Did Kobe not trash his organization?

Come on man, I think Kobe probably is the best player of his generation but he sure as hell isn't this one man team that people want to posit.

[barbaroi]

True. But he had about 2 good games that series, 2-3 atrocious ones, and 2 decent ones. He wouldn't even have gotten to that point if not for his great teammates. In fact, he wouldn't have made it out of the first round if not for his great teammates.

I'm not trying to "hate" here but this is what I see as the truth. No one else last season had the luxury of stringing together bad games and still winning, except Tim Duncan.

Um, what about in the 98 finals when Jordan went 13/29, 14/33, 12/27, 9/26, and 15/35. You going to discount his contribution to that championship? Winning is more than just putting up pretty numbers. Against great defensive teams your numbers just aren't going to look good. They just won't, no matter what. And if you want to win, you just have to deal with it and find a way to put points on the board.

[clayton]

What if the Lakers beat Miami while Kobe shot like crap?

[rzp]

Kobe 's nutters make it sound as if it were Kobe standing up against the whole Miami team on his own and THAT FAILS

this

[Bring-Your-Js]

No its not ridiculous... check Miami's second best scorer numbers.

Then check the freakin insane Lakers Shaq's numbers.

Wade carried the team, Kobe not. Thats the little difference

Kobe never carried the team in his 5 rings btw.

That isn't the point. Kobe was as effective/dominant as supposed "second fiddle" as Dwyane Wade in his championship year. I'm not comparing the quality of their teams, only individual performance. What's the point of pointing out "prime Shaq" when he's already won twice with a 2nd scorer a dozen or so ppg below Shaq? It's simply not as extreme as needing a "prime shaq" to win. People continue to change the criteria in last ditch efforts to diminish anything he's accomplished.

The last statement doesn't even warrant a response.

[ginobli2311]

I get a kick out of posts like these...

Kobe had a bad SHOOTING night in that game seven. His teammates were of no help, and continually looked to Kobe to make the shots. In the meantime, Kobe's determination and grit, with his 15 rebounds and great defense, kept LA in the game...and the Lakers were champions.

How did Kobe do in the previous rounds? How did Kobe do in the San Antonio series throughout his career? Why is it that Kobe had FOUR post-seasons of over 30 ppg, and SEVEN higher than Bird's BEST scoring post-season?

And does anyone actually believe that Kobe will be remembered for demanding a trade a few years ago? Or for getting traded in his rookie year?

Do you think that Jordan is going to be remembered for his 5-19 shooting game in the Finals? Do you think that Jordan is going to be remembered for playing on five losing teams? Or that he basically quit in the Piston series in the late 80's? Or that he could barely get off the floor in his last two years? Or that he has been a horrible GM?

Kobe will go down in history as one of the greatest NBA players EVER. He will probably finish somewhere close to MJ, as well. Let's just get real here.

ok. spin it however you want. kobe was bad in game 7. a few boards (mainly because his center was out and he was guarding a player that put him in the paint defensively on every play) does not change anything. he was awful.....and if he didn't have a great team around him we would never have had a chance to win. thats a fact. if the lakers were not a great team with a great coach....that celtics 13 point lead would have turned into 20 plus and the game would have been over. plain and simple.

also.....you act like it was one series or one game. kobe was way too many blemishes on his playoff resume to be compared to MJ....its laughable. we all know the list. but sorry....you can't do what he did in 2004....and you can't let the likes of paul pierce and kg walk off the court in the finals as the 2 best players when you are in your prime and playing the biggest series of your career (at that point). LOL. imagine if drexler had outplayed jordan and won finals mvp and the title back in 92.....think we might see Jordan differently?

kobe will go down as one of the ten best ever. but both shaq and duncan were better players. so comparing him to MJ is out of the question.