Is Michael Jordan really the best player of all time?

[Mentally_Pretty]

It is so patently obvious that Jordan is a top 7 player all time that the very act of asking that question either labels you a troll or an ignoramus.

so im a troll because i want to know everone's opinion?

ive already stated that i think he is a top player so you cant say im hating or trolling.

[Soothsayer]

so im a troll because i want to know everone's opinion?

ive already stated that i think he is a top player so you cant say im hating or trolling.

I understand you wanting to get everyone's opinion, but nobody will take you seriously if you phrase it that way. That's like me asking, "Is Karl Malone a top 50 player of all time"? Well of course he is. What's the point of asking a question like that, where the answer is so obvious?

[Soothsayer]

no....also more media helps

Irrelevant. You can completely factor out Jordan's "media" and simply look at his accomplishments, and still easily determine that he is GOAT.

[MagicalLA]

Most repeated thread in the history of ISH forums.

This is the main reason there will be a third world war, people just dont f*cking learn.

[alexandreben]

Most repeated thread in the history of ISH forums.

This is the main reason there will be a third world war, people just dont f*cking learn.

LOL I didn't know that this topic is an "MC" thread...

"MC"="Menstrual Cycle

[jlauber]

ShaqAttack,

As always, you bring a TON of inteliigence and rationality to your posts.

We will obviously never know what PRIME Wilt, asked to "carry the load" would do in the current NBA (or the 80's and 90's.) My point all along was that we never really witnessed it WHILE he played, either. IMHO, Chamberlain's best season (among so many) was in the middle of his career...in the 66-67 season. There are several strong arguments for that, but the BEST one, at least IMHO, was that he led his TEAM to a convincing title. Much like Russell, you could throw out Wilt's stats that year...and just let the TEAM results speak for themselves. What was interesting was that, very early on (game five I believe), they destroyed the Celtics, 138-96, and never looked back. By mid-season when they were something like 46-4, it was almost a foregone conclusion that they were going to win the championship (although the pundits, of course, figured that Wilt and Co. would "fold" in the post-season.)

But, unlike Russell, who never seemed to post any spectacular stats (other than some great rebounding numbers), Chamberlain DID have some amazing stats. His 24.1 ppg came on 14 FGAs per game. His .683 FG% shattered the records he had set on three separate occasions (and just one year before his .540 was the most recent one.) That mark, which of course he would shatter again in 72-73, came in a league that shot .441...AND, it was an astonishing .162 higher than the next runner-up, Walt Bellamy, at .521...which is STILL the largest differential in NBA history.

And, before I continue, here is a good time to explain MY theory of LEAGUE AVERAGE. Of course both football and baseball have them, as well. Basically, you compare the individual numbers of that season, against the league average, and then you can get some kind of a cross-era comparison. For instance, a player batting .330 in the 1930 season, was probably not close to a player batting .300 in 1968. Or a QB throwing for 4000 yards in 1988 vs a QB throwing for 3000 yards in 1961. The same theory applies to basketball. As Chamberlain, himself, mentioned (thanks to Abe) players in the 50's and 60's were shooting much lower percentages than those of the 80's. Why? There were probably several reasons, but I personally believe that the league defense, and rules, were responsible for much of it. Take a look at footage and photographs of Chamberlain in the 60's. He was swarmed. Not only that, but he took a pounding, too. Tom Heinsohn was on record as saying that the Celtics DELIBERATELY beat on him all game long. They figured that the refs were not going to call everything, and two, Wilt was not a great FT shooter. Furthermore, Wilt faced quality centers on almost every team...and far more often during the course of the season. Unlike the NBA from the 80's to current, Wilt faced opposing centers 6-10 times (or more) each season.

In any case, it must also be noted that the NBA FG% were going up almost every year during Wilt's career. His own FG% were on a steady rise. In the 65-66 season, his last "scoring season" he topped his previous FG% mark of
.528, with a .540 mark. One can probably safely assume that, had Wilt continued to put up huge scoring seasons, his FG% would have continued to rise (just as the entire league's did as well.) In Wilt's 61-62 seaon, the league FG% was .426. In his 65-66 season, it was .433. And, then, in his staggering 66-67 season, it went up to .441. The bottom line, though, is that, for whatever reasons, FG% went up almost every season, albeit slowly, until the 80's, when they skyrocketed.

As ShaqAttack said, Shaq's best FG% season was in 2008-2009, at .610...but was he really a better, more skilled player that season, than his .574 in 99-00? Same with Kareem. His PEAK seasons were in the early 70's. However, his FG% started a decline for several seasons after the 71-72 season. However, by the 80's, he was shooting nearly 60% almost every season. There was simply no way Kareem was better offensive player in the 80's, than what he was in the 70's. Kareem's FG% on the 80's, while statistically higher, was no better than his .570 percentages achieved against the much lower league FG%'s of the early 70's.

Back to Wilt's 66-67 season, though. Here again, ShaqAttack mentioned Chamberlain's 67-68 season, in which Wilt averaged 24.3, on .595 shooting. Chamberlain's 66-67 season just blows his 67-68 season away (and, BTW, Wilt's 67-68 season is STILL one of the greatest ever...he dominated a slew of statistical categories that year.) The fact was, Wilt COULD have scored 40+ ppg, or more, in that 66-67 season. Even Rick Barry, who led the league at 35.6 "thanked" Wilt for "letting" him win the title. The question, of course, would have been, how much would his FG% have dropped? IMHO, had Wilt just maintained his 33.5 ppg in 66-67, and in a NORMAL season, it would have probably risen to over .550...just based on his, and the league's, annual increase. However, Wilt's 66-67 season, was, ShaqAttack himself mentioned, an anomoly. I personally believe that Wilt could have probably averaged 35-40 ppg, and still shot over .600. And remember, while the league's FG% was rising, it was still only at .441. Transport THAT Wilt, to the mid-80's, when the leahue average was nearly 50%, and his FG% would be off the charts. His actual .683 would equate to about .740.

And while Wilt's scoring dropped considerably in the last half of his career, he would still put up several HUGE games each season. CLEARLY, Wilt COULD have scored MUCH more in his career.


As for minutes played...here again, he played WAY more than his peers. And, he was such a remarkable athlete (he was marathoner in high school...and ran marathons even into his early 60's...as well as a sprinter, 440, 880, high-jumper, longer jumper, and shot-putter)...that 48 mpg was nothing to him. And he was logging 43+ mpg in his LAST season. Would he play 45 mpg in today's NBA? I don't know...but I do know that he would easily be capable of it.

Shot attempts? I agree that, due to pace, that he would be getting a maximum of 30 FGAs per game. And many coaches would probably not allow ONE player to take 1/3 of the team's shots. It would just not be good for team morale. Still, MJ, Kobe, and Iverson were taking 27-28 FGAs in their highest seasons...so it is not as if it couldn't be done. Even Shaq and Hakeem took 30+ FGAs in some post-season games, and Kareem took as many as 40 in the post-season.

Realistically, though, Wilt would probably get somewhere around 25. If he could shoot around .600, he would be scoring 30 ppg on FGAs, and then add another 5-6 from the FT line. That would equate to about 35 ppg. Cut his minutes back a little, and it could drop to 30...but remember, we are talking about a PEAK season here.

I'll meet ShaqAttack and Guy halfway...and say this much...in today's game, a PEAK Wilt would probably average about 30-32 ppg. BUT, he would be capable of HUGE games, as well. Wilt was putting up a slew of 50-60 point games in his "non-scoring" seasons the last half of his career. What would a PRIME Wilt be capable of, and being asked to score more frequently...especially against such a weak crop of centers, in today's game?

Anyway, the bottom line, is once again, I guess ShaqAttack and I will just have to respectively agree to disagree.

Still, no matter what criteria is used, Wilt HAS to rank right there with MJ, Russell, and Kareem (and Magic, BTW) for the GOAT.

[puppychili]

Wilt does rank right up there without a doubt. Saying that Jordan is the GOAT doesn't mean that Jordan far superior than Russell, Wilt, Magic, etc. It just means he's the best. Whether it's by a hair or by a mile it doesn't matter. Jordan is the GOAT. This thread can go on for 25 more pages and it won't change that.

[Soothsayer]

Wilt does rank right up there without a doubt. Saying that Jordan is the GOAT doesn't mean that Jordan far superior than Russell, Wilt, Magic, etc. It just means he's the best. Whether it's by a hair or by a mile it doesn't matter. Jordan is the GOAT. This thread can go on for 25 more pages and it won't change that.

Exactly. Other players have cases for GOAT, Jordan just has the best case.

[juju151111]

ShaqAttack,

As always, you bring a TON of inteliigence and rationality to your posts.

We will obviously never know what PRIME Wilt, asked to "carry the load" would do in the current NBA (or the 80's and 90's.) My point all along was that we never really witnessed it WHILE he played, either. IMHO, Chamberlain's best season (among so many) was in the middle of his career...in the 66-67 season. There are several strong arguments for that, but the BEST one, at least IMHO, was that he led his TEAM to a convincing title. Much like Russell, you could throw out Wilt's stats that year...and just let the TEAM results speak for themselves. What was interesting was that, very early on (game five I believe), they destroyed the Celtics, 138-96, and never looked back. By mid-season when they were something like 46-4, it was almost a foregone conclusion that they were going to win the championship (although the pundits, of course, figured that Wilt and Co. would "fold" in the post-season.)

But, unlike Russell, who never seemed to post any spectacular stats (other than some great rebounding numbers), Chamberlain DID have some amazing stats. His 24.1 ppg came on 14 FGAs per game. His .683 FG% shattered the records he had set on three separate occasions (and just one year before his .540 was the most recent one.) That mark, which of course he would shatter again in 72-73, came in a league that shot .441...AND, it was an astonishing .162 higher than the next runner-up, Walt Bellamy, at .521...which is STILL the largest differential in NBA history.

And, before I continue, here is a good time to explain MY theory of LEAGUE AVERAGE. Of course both football and baseball have them, as well. Basically, you compare the individual numbers of that season, against the league average, and then you can get some kind of a cross-era comparison. For instance, a player batting .330 in the 1930 season, was probably not close to a player batting .300 in 1968. Or a QB throwing for 4000 yards in 1988 vs a QB throwing for 3000 yards in 1961. The same theory applies to basketball. As Chamberlain, himself, mentioned (thanks to Abe) players in the 50's and 60's were shooting much lower percentages than those of the 80's. Why? There were probably several reasons, but I personally believe that the league defense, and rules, were responsible for much of it. Take a look at footage and photographs of Chamberlain in the 60's. He was swarmed. Not only that, but he took a pounding, too. Tom Heinsohn was on record as saying that the Celtics DELIBERATELY beat on him all game long. They figured that the refs were not going to call everything, and two, Wilt was not a great FT shooter. Furthermore, Wilt faced quality centers on almost every team...and far more often during the course of the season. Unlike the NBA from the 80's to current, Wilt faced opposing centers 6-10 times (or more) each season.

In any case, it must also be noted that the NBA FG% were going up almost every year during Wilt's career. His own FG% were on a steady rise. In the 65-66 season, his last "scoring season" he topped his previous FG% mark of
.528, with a .540 mark. One can probably safely assume that, had Wilt continued to put up huge scoring seasons, his FG% would have continued to rise (just as the entire league's did as well.) In Wilt's 61-62 seaon, the league FG% was .426. In his 65-66 season, it was .433. And, then, in his staggering 66-67 season, it went up to .441. The bottom line, though, is that, for whatever reasons, FG% went up almost every season, albeit slowly, until the 80's, when they skyrocketed.

As ShaqAttack said, Shaq's best FG% season was in 2008-2009, at .610...but was he really a better, more skilled player that season, than his .574 in 99-00? Same with Kareem. His PEAK seasons were in the early 70's. However, his FG% started a decline for several seasons after the 71-72 season. However, by the 80's, he was shooting nearly 60% almost every season. There was simply no way Kareem was better offensive player in the 80's, than what he was in the 70's. Kareem's FG% on the 80's, while statistically higher, was no better than his .570 percentages achieved against the much lower league FG%'s of the early 70's.

Back to Wilt's 66-67 season, though. Here again, ShaqAttack mentioned Chamberlain's 67-68 season, in which Wilt averaged 24.3, on .595 shooting. Chamberlain's 66-67 season just blows his 67-68 season away (and, BTW, Wilt's 67-68 season is STILL one of the greatest ever...he dominated a slew of statistical categories that year.) The fact was, Wilt COULD have scored 40+ ppg, or more, in that 66-67 season. Even Rick Barry, who led the league at 35.6 "thanked" Wilt for "letting" him win the title. The question, of course, would have been, how much would his FG% have dropped? IMHO, had Wilt just maintained his 33.5 ppg in 66-67, and in a NORMAL season, it would have probably risen to over .550...just based on his, and the league's, annual increase. However, Wilt's 66-67 season, was, ShaqAttack himself mentioned, an anomoly. I personally believe that Wilt could have probably averaged 35-40 ppg, and still shot over .600. And remember, while the league's FG% was rising, it was still only at .441. Transport THAT Wilt, to the mid-80's, when the leahue average was nearly 50%, and his FG% would be off the charts. His actual .683 would equate to about .740.

And while Wilt's scoring dropped considerably in the last half of his career, he would still put up several HUGE games each season. CLEARLY, Wilt COULD have scored MUCH more in his career.


As for minutes played...here again, he played WAY more than his peers. And, he was such a remarkable athlete (he was marathoner in high school...and ran marathons even into his early 60's...as well as a sprinter, 440, 880, high-jumper, longer jumper, and shot-putter)...that 48 mpg was nothing to him. And he was logging 43+ mpg in his LAST season. Would he play 45 mpg in today's NBA? I don't know...but I do know that he would easily be capable of it.

Shot attempts? I agree that, due to pace, that he would be getting a maximum of 30 FGAs per game. And many coaches would probably not allow ONE player to take 1/3 of the team's shots. It would just not be good for team morale. Still, MJ, Kobe, and Iverson were taking 27-28 FGAs in their highest seasons...so it is not as if it couldn't be done. Even Shaq and Hakeem took 30+ FGAs in some post-season games, and Kareem took as many as 40 in the post-season.

Realistically, though, Wilt would probably get somewhere around 25. If he could shoot around .600, he would be scoring 30 ppg on FGAs, and then add another 5-6 from the FT line. That would equate to about 35 ppg. Cut his minutes back a little, and it could drop to 30...but remember, we are talking about a PEAK season here.

I'll meet ShaqAttack and Guy halfway...and say this much...in today's game, a PEAK Wilt would probably average about 30-32 ppg. BUT, he would be capable of HUGE games, as well. Wilt was putting up a slew of 50-60 point games in his "non-scoring" seasons the last half of his career. What would a PRIME Wilt be capable of, and being asked to score more frequently...especially against such a weak crop of centers, in today's game?

Anyway, the bottom line, is once again, I guess ShaqAttack and I will just have to respectively agree to disagree.

Still, no matter what criteria is used, Wilt HAS to rank right there with MJ, Russell, and Kareem (and Magic, BTW) for the GOAT.

Wilt will obviously have his 40+ 50+ games and can still avg 32-35 ppg. Kobe,Wade,Mj, etc... all avg 32,but had like 10 40+ gms in those seasons.

[LBJFTW]

So how much of an impact did Pippen have on Jordan's ability to become the GOAT?