Name a legit good player Dirk has ever played with in Dallas.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

beno played over 30 minutes 49 times during the season compared to stack who only played over 30 minutes 27 times

how is that even remotely the same minutes?

Because you and I were not talking about "total" minutes for the year but minutes per game. And they both played roughly the same minutes per game.

[6thManOfTheYear]

Because you and I were not talking about "total" minutes for the year but minutes per game. And they both played roughly the same minutes per game.

they're not even the same situation.

one was a bench player in a 6th man role and the other was a starter at the end of the season who started 41 games

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Dirk has had multiple players who were allstars or former all stars who were good scorers, and he often had them on the same team. Don't tell me he never had other options.

I am not talking about "other options." I am talking about second options on offense. Big difference. And you know that, or at least I hope you would.

And what Stack did in the past is irrelevant to the discussion of when he played with Dirk. Stack was not even remotely the same "good" player from his earlier days to when he was with the Mavs. And you know that too.

[icemanfan]

Nash was really good in Dallas during his last three seasons as a Mavs. Not as great as he is as a Suns but still good enough to be considered the #2 guy.

Only problem is the Spurs(Duncan & crew) and Lakers(Shaq, Kobe and crew) were 5 times better than them during that stint.

This. The OP is either completely brain dead OR in denial. Either way this thread is mental retarded level stupid.

P.S. Right now Cuban has the Mavs as the 2nd rightest payroll in the L. That does not happen by NOT having talent. Talent is not the issue. Having a GM who picks the right talent, a coach who can come up with a style that supports his MVP and an owner who has the good sense to stay the **** out of it all; now that is the key.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

they're not even the same situation.

one was a bench player in a 6th man role and the other was a starter at the end of the season who started 41 games

And yet both playered the pretty much the same MPG, and put up similar stats.

Talk about a liberal definition of "good."

That's like saying a guy who gets paid 8 bucks an hour is rich over a guy who gets paid 7.50 an hour.

But wait? One guy works at Lowe's and the other guy works at Home Depot! They are in different situations!

[dawsey6]

So if Beno is not considered "good" then you can't say Stackhouse is "good." Both are about the same in terms of production/quality. Stackhouse had the better career but for a season or two with the Mavs and the season or two with the Kings, Beno is on par with Stackhouse.



Dirk has never had a true second option. Or he has never had a true first option (making him a second option).

He has always player with some talented guys who were at best third options (a la Jason Terry). But in the playoffs, a team needs a couple of guys who are second bananas.

I think you completely missed the point. The point was that a Jerry was a good 3rd or 4th option. In the subsequent season, he put up 13/3/3 in 28 min, and was the 4th option, which is better than just good. That's great. As a matter of fact, he had five other guys averaging 10 or more point per game.

Never had a legit 2nd option? What was Finley? Dirk was Finley's 2nd option before his breakout season in '01. And Finley remained 20/5 player for another few seasons. How is he not a legit 2nd option?

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

P.S. Right now Cuban has the Mavs as the 2nd rightest payroll in the L. That does not happen by NOT having talent. Talent is not the issue. Having a GM who picks the right talent, a coach who can come up with a style that supports his MVP and an owner who has the good sense to stay the **** out of it all; now that is the key.

Exactly. Talent isn't the only thing. Dirk has played with some talented guys. But just like I mentioned. They rarely (if ever) fit together.

[Showtime]

I am not talking about "other options." I am talking about second options on offense. Big difference. And you know that, or at least I hope you would.

First off, what were Nash and Finley if not legit #2 guys? Also, Dirk had a deeper pool of scorers, which is my point. Having 2 or 3 or 4 other guys who can drop 30 any given night is better than having just ONE other all-star.

And what Stack did in the past is irrelevant to the discussion of when he played with Dirk.

No, it isn't, because we are talking about the types of players. Do you think just any 30 something SG could come in a produce as a 4th guy like Stack? Or would you rather have a former all star scoring champ in that role? Look at how Grant Hill is helping PHX and tell me his career prior to that has no bearing on being able to help his team.

Stack was not even remotely the same "good" player from his earlier days to when he was with the Mavs. And you know that too.

IN THE ROLE HE PLAYED, he was. This is what you can't seem to understand.

[6thManOfTheYear]

And yet both playered the pretty much the same MPG, and put up similar stats.

Talk about a liberal definition of "good."

That's like saying a guy who gets paid 8 bucks an hour is rich over a guy who gets paid 7.50 an hour.

But wait? One guy works at Lowe's and the other guy works at Home Depot! They are in different situations!

no that's like one player getting exactly 20 points (and maybe 30 or 40 rarely) every single game vs another players starting the year off having games scoring less than 10 points and having more 30 and 40 point games frequently towards the end of the season and both having the same averages at the end of the season.

[NY-Knicks]

No, it isn't, because we are talking about the types of players. Do you think just any 30 something SG could come in a produce as a 4th guy like Stack? Or would you rather have a former all star scoring champ in that role? Look at how Grant Hill is helping PHX and tell me his career prior to that has no bearing on being able to help his team.



IN THE ROLE HE PLAYED, he was. This is what you can't seem to understand.

what people don't understand is that Jerry Stackhouse was still a good player during his days with the Mavericks. Of course he wasn't the scorer he once was, but he became very comfortable in his role with the Mavericks. He needed to adapt his game in order to win an NBA championship, unfortunately for him this did not happen.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Never had a legit 2nd option? What was Finley? Dirk was Finley's 2nd option before his breakout season in '01. And Finley remained 20/5 player for another few seasons. How is he not a legit 2nd option?

Scoring 20 points does not make one a second banana. Josh Howard pretty much scored 20 a guy for a couple of seasons too. Jason Terry pretty much scored that as well.

It isn't about scoring 20. It is about being counted on to score. It is being counted on to draw attention. So much attention that the defense has to double. And yes there is a difference.

[Wukillabeez78]

I am not talking about "other options." I am talking about second options on offense. Big difference. And you know that, or at least I hope you would.

And what Stack did in the past is irrelevant to the discussion of when he played with Dirk. Stack was not even remotely the same "good" player from his earlier days to when he was with the Mavs. And you know that too.

Dirk had plenty of second options on offense. Finley was actually option number one and it was his team before Dirk came into his own.

[COLOR="Red"]You don't want to address the real truth.[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]Dirk is only a good player himself.[/COLOR] He's not on the same level as players who are/were truly great are. Greatness takes skill and it takes a certain mindset. Dirk does not possess this mindset. He doesn't have the same mindset truly great players (Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Isiah, Hakeem,etc...) possess. He is not a leader and not a stand up guy. If you hit him he won't hit back, he'll look to the refs for help. If you hit anyone of those guys I mentioned above or even hit one of their teammates they'd get you themselves. That mindset along with their skills is what made them great. Dirk doesn't have this mindset. [COLOR="Red"]Statistics don't make you great. Dirk could score 50,000 points in his career and still wouldn't be a great player. He'd be what he is now, a great scorer but not a great player overall.[/COLOR] Dirk is a truly gifted player who is very good but not great. He will never win a championship until he is paired with a player who is a true leader and who possesses that mindset required to be great.

[Showtime]

Scoring 20 points does not make one a second banana. Josh Howard pretty much scored 20 a guy for a couple of seasons too. Jason Terry pretty much scored that as well.

It isn't about scoring 20. It is about being counted on to score. It is being counted on to draw attention. So much attention that the defense has to double. And yes there is a difference.

Finley was a money jump shooter and still could penetrate with the mavs. He lost all ability to do that with the spurs but still managed to be of some use there. So why wasn't Finley or Nash legit #2's?

And LMAO at your argument. You say that stats don't determine the type of player, and yet when we talk about the type of player that Dirk is, the response is a post about his stats.

[icemanfan]

Exactly. Talent isn't the only thing. Dirk has played with some talented guys. But just like I mentioned. They rarely (if ever) fit together.

and THAT is exactly the problem right there. The problem is NOT talent. The problem is having an owner who keeps trying to buy a championship by buying talent and throwing them all together and wondering why its not working. You must first have a PLAN. Then you have to have a basketball mind that can put that plan into motion. If Cuban had a regular size ego he would see this. He would hire a very talented GM and get out of the way.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

First off, what were Nash and Finley if not legit #2 guys? Also, Dirk had a deeper pool of scorers, which is my point. Having 2 or 3 or 4 other guys who can drop 30 any given night is better than having just ONE other all-star.

History proves otherwise. Most NBA teams that have won champuionships have had a superstar combined with a second banana. A "deep" team full of 3rd or 4th option guys rarely win championships.

No, it isn't, because we are talking about the types of players. Do you think just any 30 something SG could come in a produce as a 4th guy like Stack? Or would you rather have a former all star scoring champ in that role? Look at how Grant Hill is helping PHX and tell me his career prior to that has no bearing on being able to help his team.

I think there are a lot of guys who could put up 14/3/2 on 40% shooting in 30 MPG. You may not agree.

Dirk had plenty of second options on offense. Finley was actually option number one and it was his team before Dirk came into his own.

You don't want to address the real truth. Dirk is only a good player himself. He's not on the same level as players who are/were truly great are. Greatness takes skill and it takes a certain mindset. Dirk does not possess this mindset. He doesn't have the same mindset truly great players (Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Isiah, Hakeem,etc...) possess. He is not a leader and not a stand up guy. If you hit him he won't hit back, he'll look to the refs for help. If you hit anyone of those guys I mentioned above or even hit one of their teammates they'd get you themselves. That mindset along with their skills is what made them great. Dirk doesn't have this mindset. Statistics don't make you great. Dirk could score 50,000 points in his career and still wouldn't be a great player. He'd be what he is now, a great scorer but not a great player overall. Dirk is a truly gifted player who is very good but not great. He will never win a championship until he is paired with a player who is a true leader and who possesses that mindset required to be great.

And even with all his flaws, Dirk is still a top 50 player all time. That is amazing that someone with all his problems can be be better than 70-80& of ever NBA player in the history of the game.