David Lee got Robbed

[artest 93]

Brook Lopez could be the best center in the league if he continues to improve. He already has a solid little post game down low and gotta nice flame for a guy his height. He kinda reminded me of Yao Ming in his first 2 year in the league and their numbers are identical

Yao Ming
13.5ppg 8.2RPG 1.8 BPG
17.5ppg 9.0RPG 1.9 BPG

Brook Lopez
13PPG 8.1RPG 1.8 BPG
19ppg 9.4RPG 2.0 BPG

Again, team record is and should be considered. 4-40 or w/e is not going to get you into the all star game. Kevin Martin and Monte Ellis are what I would call fraudulent stat padders. They can go 26/5/5 on 50% FG and it would still be very meaningless to the team.

I'm not saying that's entirely Brook Lopez's fault, but as a starter, he definitely shares the blame.

I personally don't think any "star" from a team with less than a .500 record should be in the all-star game. 4-40 is ridiculous and inexcusable.

[G.O.A.T]

Lee was correctly left off the team because of his teams record.

His stats are great, but stats are meaningless when measuring the value of a player other than to show that players role on his team and what "type" of player he is.

He is an improved offensive player, an above average rebounder and a poor defender.

I like his offensive game a lot and think he helps most teams, but unless he is your power forward and you have a shot blocker at the five, you are not beating any good teams in a series with him as your 1st or 2nd option.

[jonathan]

Because if he showed big improvement between his second and third season it would prove D'Antoni wasn't the reason for it. Duh

Seriously man, drop it. It's completely obvious you haven't watched the knicks at all outside of their games vs atlanta. D'Antoni's "system" cannot be responsible for Lee's improvement in jumpshot, moves around the basket, ball handling, etc. This isn't a video game. It's not like D'Antoni came in and Lee automatically leveled up, increased his HP and magic levels and all of a sudden he's a much better player.

A system can affect stats, but most of the posts here, like from Chuck, aren't even talking about stats. We're talking about things we can see in his game that he worked on in the offseason and now he's getting tangible results with. It's pretty damned obvious to anyone who's watched any knicks games.

[G.O.A.T]

Seriously man, drop it. It's completely obvious you haven't watched the knicks at all outside of their games vs atlanta. D'Antoni's "system" cannot be responsible for Lee's improvement in jumpshot, moves around the basket, ball handling, etc. This isn't a video game. It's not like D'Antoni came in and Lee automatically leveled up, increased his HP and magic levels and all of a sudden he's a much better player.

A system can affect stats, but most of the posts here, like from Chuck, aren't even talking about stats. We're talking about things we can see in his game that he worked on in the offseason and now he's getting tangible results with. It's pretty damned obvious to anyone who's watched any knicks games.

I don't watch the Knicks much, but I;ve seen there games against Detroit and parts of a few others. I think what Tontaz is saying is that Lee's stats suggest he is a better player than he is because of the pace the Knicks play at the the players around him.

If he was on a team like Atlanta for example he'd average less shots therefore less points. Play fewer possessions and alongside bigger, better rebounders, therefore fewer rebounds and touch the ball on fewer possessions therefore fewer assists.

Lee is a terrific player and example of what hard work and a willingness to do what the team asks and\or needs of you can do for you. But until he plays for a winner or has an (significant) impact on both ends of the floor, he's not an all-star.

[jonathan]

I don't watch the Knicks much, but I;ve seen there games against Detroit and parts of a few others. I think what Tontaz is saying is that Lee's stats suggest he is a better player than he is because of the pace the Knicks play at the the players around him.

If he was on a team like Atlanta for example he'd average less shots therefore less points. Play fewer possessions and alongside bigger, better rebounders, therefore fewer rebounds and touch the ball on fewer possessions therefore fewer assists.

Lee is a terrific player and example of what hard work and a willingness to do what the team asks and\or needs of you can do for you. But until he plays for a winner or has an (significant) impact on both ends of the floor, he's not an all-star.

Well I completely agree with that. For example, his both assist and TO's are up this year because he's handling the ball more. But stats don't tell the whole story. His game is completely different this year. He was always terrific around the basket. Be he was never a go-to guy, he never had a reliable jumpshot, he was never this creative off the dribble with the ball, etc. So I guess my point was if you've seen these improvements in his development you cannot simply attribute them to the system. His starts are better this year because he's simply a better player.

[Poodle]

I don't watch the Knicks much, but I;ve seen there games against Detroit and parts of a few others. I think what Tontaz is saying is that Lee's stats suggest he is a better player than he is because of the pace the Knicks play at the the players around him.

If he was on a team like Atlanta for example he'd average less shots therefore less points. Play fewer possessions and alongside bigger, better rebounders, therefore fewer rebounds and touch the ball on fewer possessions therefore fewer assists.

Lee is a terrific player and example of what hard work and a willingness to do what the team asks and\or needs of you can do for you. But until he plays for a winner or has an (significant) impact on both ends of the floor, he's not an all-star.

lol do you know how many offensive focused all stars there have been that weren't great defenders? like most of them.

most people here just do not know how good lee is. thats what this all boils down to. and it still takes talent to get numbers on bad teams considering they aren't getting the easy passes/support to make those numbers happen like players on good teams. if he's doing it at a high% which he is, then that means a lot more. look at NJ, all of them more or less have some awful numbers and no consistency, including lopez, and are very wishy washy but you all pretend its so easy getting numbers on bad teams. last i checked a mid range shot is a mid range shot is a mid range shot. good or bad team has very little to do with being able to drain them.

[tontoz]

Seriously man, drop it. It's completely obvious you haven't watched the knicks at all outside of their games vs atlanta. D'Antoni's "system" cannot be responsible for Lee's improvement in jumpshot, moves around the basket, ball handling, etc. This isn't a video game. It's not like D'Antoni came in and Lee automatically leveled up, increased his HP and magic levels and all of a sudden he's a much better player.

A system can affect stats, but most of the posts here, like from Chuck, aren't even talking about stats. We're talking about things we can see in his game that he worked on in the offseason and now he's getting tangible results with. It's pretty damned obvious to anyone who's watched any knicks games.

I guess Lee didn't work on his game at all after his second season, right?

[G.O.A.T]

lol do you know how many offensive focused all stars there have been that weren't great defenders? like most of them.

give me a list of below average defenders on teams with .400 winning percentages that made the all-star team:

If there are more than five names I'll concede the point.

[Dresta]

Josh Smith was the real snub here.

[Poodle]

give me a list of below average defenders on teams with .400 winning percentages that made the all-star team:

If there are more than five names I'll concede the point.

i don't think lee is below average. i think he's right around average. i don't think he's much different than most big men i watch, that aren't specialists or freaks. not just talking about this year since i figure we're talking in context of being an all star period and i don't have a 2010 all star roster to go by but i'll go off 2009 roster.

amare
ai
dirk
jj


i'd even add kaman if he didn't get snubbed. AlJeff is a pretty piss poor defender too. theres lots of them around the same level as lee, but there are some on a different level but most of them are specialists/freaks. difference is they don't generally get voted into the allstar game if they don't have offense.

[Bigsmoke]

People who thinks David Lee is better than Al Horford just because of his stats. There are not other rebounders on the Knicks and they play a fast pace offense with no defense. If anything, let see how who's better when David Lee and Al Horford go against each other

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...2&p2=horfoal01


Horford wins

[Hotlantadude81]

Team record considered, he statistically DOMINATES Horford and plays hard every night. Team record should only come into play when two players are neck and neck. It shouldn't be the biggest factor. Otherwise why not make Derek Fisher the starting PG over Chris Paul?

Lee couldn't defend a paper bag.

[Blue&Orange]

I guess Lee didn't work on his game at all after his second season, right?

Gerald Wallace improvement was because of D'antoni also... Thank you for being retarded and make me laugh.

[tontoz]

Gerald Wallace improvement was because of D'antoni also... Thank you for being retarded and make me laugh.

Intersting that you brought up Wallace. it just so happens that the Bobcats traded away their leading rebounder Okafor last summer. They traded him for Chandler who hasn't played much due to injury, hence the big increase in GWallace's rebounding.

Wallace averaged 16.6 ppg last year shooting 48% (same as this year) in 4.4 fewer minutes. It isn't like he suddenly became a big scorer this year.

Try again.

[tontoz]

i don't think lee is below average. i think he's right around average. i don't think he's much different than most big men i watch, that aren't specialists or freaks. not just talking about this year since i figure we're talking in context of being an all star period and i don't have a 2010 all star roster to go by but i'll go off 2009 roster.

amare
ai
dirk
jj


i'd even add kaman if he didn't get snubbed. AlJeff is a pretty piss poor defender too. theres lots of them around the same level as lee, but there are some on a different level but most of them are specialists/freaks. difference is they don't generally get voted into the allstar game if they don't have offense.

RIF

Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
give me a list of below average defenders on teams with .400 winning percentages that made the all-star team:

If there are more than five names I'll concede the point.

JJ has never been considered a poor defender FYI. In fact he was seen as a defensive stopper in Phoenix.