1994 Knicks vs Bulls Game 3. What was Pippen thinking?

[Da_Realist]

I'm a bit confused. Jordan's a ballhog for taking a lot of shots but is a "quitter" when he cuts back when asked? Which is it? Also, did he really "quit"? What about his other stats?

Jordan had 18 points, 5 rebounds and 9 assists.

Here's the game for those interested. It's one of those games I want to update (add more footage and improve the quality) but there's enough for anyone to watch and make up their own minds.
http://www.youtube.com/user/tjhunt76...96199CF0192C40

My opinion is Jordan didn't shoot as much as he usually did or as much as he should have, but he didn't stop playing. He still played great d, dished the ball... It wasn't the same as what Kobe did against the Suns where he totally stopped playing and camped out behind the 3 pt line. But that's my opinion.

By the way...did I read that Doug Collins wanted to go to Dave Corzine on the last play in Cleveland with the Bulls down one? If he did, I have two thoughts...

1) Jordan should have been mad. Dave f*cking Corzine??? He had a nice little jumpshot that he could knock down from time to time when he was wide open, but c'mon. Jordan being mad at that (if true) is what separates him from the rest. He knew he had a better chance to make the shot than anyone else on the team and he probably would have gone out in the first round if he decided to be a "team player" in that situation. Guess what? Basketball rewards team play... but there are times when it pays to be selfish. That's a dirty little secret no one wants to admit because it doesn't sound good. Just like there are times to lie. But that's another thread.

2) Doug Collins should have been fired if he called that play for Dave Corzine. I don't believe it. Doug is smarter than that. Jordan was going OFF that quarter and had knocked down the Bulls' previous shot to give them the lead before Ehlo put Cleveland back in the lead.

By the way...since everything these days seem to be centered on how selfish Jordan was...some of you ought to read Craig Hodges account of what happened on that last play. He said he screwed up by allowing Ehlo to backdoor him for the layup. After the play, Jordan came over and told him, "don't worry. I'm not going to let us lose this game." I forgot where I heard/read this. Maybe in David Halberstam's book.

*edit* I just looked at the replays. Dave Corzine wasn't even on the court! I skimmed through the whole 4th quarter, I didn't see Dave Corzine until the Bulls called a timeout and he was wearing his warmup jacket The lineup was Jordan, Hodges, Pippen, Grant and Cartwright for most of the fourth quarter with Sellers getting some time at the end.

As far as Pippen's play...I never hammered him for it. It was a selfish move...but I understand that sometimes you have to be selfish. Not all the time. Not most of the time, but sometimes. He thought that was his time and he wanted to take it. He paid his dues and felt like he deserved it. I never thought any less of Scottie for that moment.

RR, I got your PM's. I'll respond when I get a chance. Family's visiting for the holidays...

[Roundball_Rock]

By the way...did I read that Doug Collins wanted to go to Dave Corzine on the last play in Cleveland with the Bulls down 1? If he did, I have two thoughts...

Yes, according to Sam Smith in the Jordan Rules. The idea was not as crazy as it seems. His thinking was everyone would expect the ball to go to MJ so he designed it for Corzine, similar to Jackson's thinking with Pippen and Kukoc. Edit: I skimmed through it and can't find it so I will retract it. I may have read it elsewhere. The Game 5 ECF thing is on pg 63. Why don't basketball books have indexes??? Edit II: I found it. Page 82.

By the way...since everything these days seem to be centered on how selfish Jordan was..

No one was even talking about Jordan until a Jordan fan acted as if Jordan would never do what Pippen did. I don't believe anyone even said he was selfish, although it was implicit in Collins' thinking.

I didn't want this to devolve into a MJ or Kobe thread so I never mentioned them by name in my first reply. I still haven't mentioned Player Z from the 60's. My point was all these greats get a pass for what they did yet Pippen's legacy is scarred by what he did.

No problem. I wanted to clear things up so I addressed every possible question I thought you would have so they were lengthy. Note that I am not saying much about the 80's in this thread or making definitive declarations on Dr. J's defense based on limited information. I evolved as a poster. It is a lot different talking to hardcore fans here than friends who don't know Dr. J from Dr. Pepper.

[Alhazred]

Exellent post, Realist, thank you for adding to the discussion.

[Alhazred]

Quick question, why did Collins want Corzine to take it? Why not Hodges, Pippen or Grant?

[Roundball_Rock]

No one would expect it. When he began to draw the play and the players realized it was for Corzine they frowned. Collins defended the play by saying it was a good idea because no one would except it (the same reason Jackson cited for calling that play for Kukoc). Jordan slammed his fist on the clipboard, said "Give me the ****in ball", the play was changed to MJ and he made that now legendary shot over Ehlo.

[chitownsfinest]

Giving the ball to Kukoc over Pippen is much more reasonable then giving the ball to Dave freaking Corzine over Jordan. Giving Pippen the final shot means he has to make a shot over Mason while MJ has to make the shotn over Ehlo, it is not the same situation. No wonder the team quit on Collins and did not like the guy.

[Alhazred]

You could easily say they wouldn't have expected Hodges to take it, either. See, Kukoc I can understand, but Corzine? Also, how many players frowned when Phil said Toni was taking the shot, other than Pippen?

[Mister JT]

Never read The Jordan Rules (though I bought Michael Leahy's When Nothing Else Matters). I'm curious to find out how Sam Smith knew that the play was for Corzine. I'm not sure if journalists can get close to the huddle during timeouts.

Remember this is the same Sam Smith, who, from out of nowhere, proposed that LeBron could join Kobe in LA in 2010.

And didn't Collins say at the postgame press conference, that the play was to "give the ball to Jordan and everybody else get the **** out of the way..."?

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm curious to find out how Sam Smith knew that the play was for Corzine. I'm not sure if journalists can get close to the huddle during timeouts.

Asking around as a journalist does. If it really happened do you think it wouldn't get mentioned? I believe Smith was the beat reporter for the team. When talking to a reporter it is easy to see a player saying "Mike made a great shot...but can you believe the play originally was for Collins...Collins sucks..."

People BS in press conferences all the time. Even that statement is technically accurate since the play was for MJ. He didn't mention there was another play drawn up before that one.

You could easily say they wouldn't have expected Hodges to take it, either. See, Kukoc I can understand, but Corzine? Also, how many players frowned when Phil said Toni was taking the shot, other than Pippen?

That is all Smith wrote. It was mentioned in passing in the book so there aren't details. The story was the shot, not Collins designing a play it for Corzine.

No one has ever written a book about Pippen so we don't have such details about 94'.

Giving the ball to Kukoc over Pippen is much more reasonable then giving the ball to Dave freaking Corzine over Jordan. Giving Pippen the final shot means he has to make a shot over Mason while MJ has to make the shotn over Ehlo, it is not the same situation. No wonder the team quit on Collins and did not like the guy.

Wasn't Ehlo considered a good defender? I agree, though, that Corzine doesn't make sense but Collins must have had some rationale for choosing Corzine instead of another player. Collins, despite his flaws, is an intelligent person.

[Da_Realist]

No problem. I wanted to clear things up so I addressed every possible question I thought you would have so they were lengthy. Note that I am not saying much about the 80's in this thread or making definitive declarations on Dr. J's defense based on limited information. I evolved as a poster. It is a lot different talking to hardcore fans here than friends who don't know Dr. J from Dr. Pepper.

I have my own thoughts about Dr. J. He didn't seem to have an all-around game to me and those battles with Bird and the Celtics sort of highlighted the difference between an all-court player like Bird and a physical freak like Dr. J. He didn't seem to have a jumpshot or a left hand, but I only saw a few games starting from 80 until he retired. Probably less than 20. Intelligent posters on this board think differently so I keep my mouth shut about it.

Exellent post, Realist, thank you for adding to the discussion.

Thanks. That's just my perspective, though. I watched all those Bulls/Pistons battles. The Pistons were just better. Whether Jordan shot 8 times or 25 times. Whether he scored 15 or 42. The Pistons were just better. Especially in 88 and 89. Jordan was trying to prove a point -- and he was right. His team in 89 was not ready but he still should have played a better all around game. No excuses for that.

The Pistons were knocking him down, tripping him up and laughing at him with every win. They just crushed the Bulls. Wasn't it 88 or 89 when the Pistons were like 6-2 or 5-1 against the Bulls in the regular season? And they handed it to MJ every chance they got. MJ wanted to stand up to them and knock them down. When he looked around, he saw some softies that couldn't stand up to the big boys so he decided to take them on himself. I can imagine the eye-rolling he must have done when Collins told him to pass to Sellers, Cartwright, Grant, Hodges and Pippen more often. It's like saying, "Look, I know you're tired, but let the 16-year old in the back seat drive the next 300 miles so you can get some rest. She'll make good time." An ultra-competitor like MJ is going to say, "Hell no. We'll be fine. I can do it. That girl's never driven more than a half hour at a time."

Bad analogy or not, that's my interpretation.

No one would expect it. When he began to draw the play and the players realized it was for Corzine they frowned. Collins defended the play by saying it was a good idea because no one would except it (the same reason Jackson cited for calling that play for Kukoc). Jordan slammed his fist on the clipboard, said "Give me the ****in ball", the play was changed to MJ and he made that now legendary shot over Ehlo.

Wrong time to try to outsmart the field. I can only imagine the scrutiny that guy would have faced if he decided to run a play for a guy that didn't play the whole fourth quarter when you got the most unstoppable offensive force during his peak physical prime on your team and who is having an EPIC game. Wow. We would have never seen Doug Collins again.

[Duncan21formvp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flqc9...video_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtF-DtYBi8E

The game in which Phil Jackson went to Kukoc for the game winning shot instead of Pippen. And Pippen at the worst possible time let his insecurities get to him and exploded with anger. Go to the first vid and skip to 9:13, Pippen wanted the Bulls to inbound him the ball with 1.8 sec left. What was Pippen thinking? Why didn't Pippen want the timeout? Maybe he knew Jackson was going with Kukoc for the Final shot instead of him. And if you notice in the second vid, Pippen is not even on the floor for the Bulls final possession and he is no where to be found after Kukoc hit the game winning shot. I'm sorry, but this is a total dick move by Pippen. I bring the subject up because it seems like everyone has forgotten about the incident, just refreshing people's minds.

Kukoc saved the Bulls from a sweep.

[Alhazred]

I have my own thoughts about Dr. J. He didn't seem to have an all-around game to me and those battles with Bird and the Celtics sort of highlighted the difference between an all-court player like Bird and a physical freak like Dr. J. He didn't seem to have a jumpshot or a left hand, but I only saw a few games starting from 80 until he retired. Probably less than 20. Intelligent posters on this board think differently so I keep my mouth shut about it.

I didn't watch that much of Dr. J either aside from replays from 80s games, but he seemed to have few weaknesses other than an outside shot which you already mentioned. I probably don't know any more about him than you do, though.

Thanks. That's just my perspective, though. I watched all those Bulls/Pistons battles. The Pistons were just better. Whether Jordan shot 8 times or 25 times. Whether he scored 15 or 42. The Pistons were just better. Especially in 88 and 89. Jordan was trying to prove a point -- and he was right. His team in 89 was not ready but he still should have played a better all around game. No excuses for that.

The Pistons were knocking him down, tripping him up and laughing at him with every win. They just crushed the Bulls. Wasn't it 88 or 89 when the Pistons were like 6-2 or 5-1 against the Bulls in the regular season? And they handed it to MJ every chance they got. MJ wanted to stand up to them and knock them down. When he looked around, he saw some softies that couldn't stand up to the big boys so he decided to take them on himself. I can imagine the eye-rolling he must have done when Collins told him to pass to Sellers, Cartwright, Grant, Hodges and Pippen more often. It's like saying, "Look, I know you're tired, but let the 16-year old in the back seat drive the next 300 miles so you can get some rest. She'll make good time." An ultra-competitor like MJ is going to say, "Hell no. We'll be fine. I can do it. That girl's never driven more than a half hour at a time."

Bad analogy or not, that's my interpretation.

Eh, I liked it. :)

[Mister JT]

Yeah, if it was in the book, and no one denied it, it probably happened. If it didn't, there should have been some kind of lawsuit or statement by now.

I checked the vid. Sam Smith can be seen right next to the Bulls' bench. Hahaha!

Doug could have said what he said at the press conference because did not want to reveal that he had actually initially drawn up the play for Corzine.

[97 bulls]

no offense rock but i remember after that game in the interview doug collins saying that that play was called "give the ball to jordan and get the **** out the way". are you sure it was drawn up for corzine?

[Roundball_Rock]

Wrong time to try to outsmart the field. I can only imagine the scrutiny that guy would have faced if he decided to run a play for a guy that didn't play the whole fourth quarter when you got the most unstoppable offensive force during his peak physical prime on your team and who is having an EPIC game. Wow. We would have never seen Doug Collins again.

I agree. I am glad it worked out. Collins is my favorite analyst after Hubie Brown.

How would you compare Detroit's thuggery to the early 90's Knicks? Pippen was tripped twice in one game in the 94' series. That is just one player and just one game!

Kukoc saved the Bulls from a sweep.

In a way perhaps. They probably would have won Game 4 out of pride and determination but I agree that if he missed the series would be over. There would be no Game 7, no Hue Hollins stealing Game 5 and a 3-2 series lead from the Bulls with what many believe was the worst call in NBA history (ESPN poll, 7th worst call ever and #1 among NBA calls, #2 in basketball history behind the call in favor of the Soviets in 72' or 76'). However, Kukoc averaged 8/3 in that series on poor shooting. Let's not magnify his role.

I agree, though, that if the Bulls lost that game they would have been toast--just as they would have been toast if they lost Game 3 in the 93' ECF. Remember who stepped up with 29 points on 83% shooting that game? If you credit Kukoc for one shot you have to credit your favorite Bull for 29 points on 83%.

Yeah, if it was in the book, and no one denied it, it probably happened. If it didn't, there should have been some kind of lawsuit or statement by now.

Well, it wasn't big enough of a deal to warrant a lawsuit but if it didn't happen you would think there would have been a denial from Collins because it makes him look very bad.