Prime Riddick Bowe vs. 1990's Mike Tyson

[Gundress]

Problem is the 90s weren't his absolute prime. Bowe by decision. He wouldn't commit enough to get him out of there.

[RedBlackAttack]

Mike Tyson gets more excuses made for him than any other athlete in the history of sports.

No doubt...

"Cus died and he was never the same."
"He went to prison and it messed up his head."
"He didn't train hard and he was partying."
"He didn't take his medication."
"He did take his medication."

Blah, blah, blah, blah...

The excuses are never ending.

Here is the truth, for those that want to accept it.

Mike Tyson was a fighter who showed a lot of promise, but never fulfilled his expectations (or even came close). People loved him because he was a great power puncher that was exciting to watch. He was also a mental midget who could never handle adversity and never beat another truly elite fighter of his generation.

People want to hold on to the myth of Tyson because they grew up idolizing him and they believe if they let go of that vicious image, they will be letting go of a piece of their childhood. I grew up watching and loving Mike's style, too, but at some point, you have to think rationally.

His resume is absolutely weak and he was completely dominated by two other great fighters of his generation.

If any other athlete in any other sport received the amount of excuses and free passes that Tyson does, people would laugh it off as some kind of joke. For some reason, otherwise perfectly reasonable people toss these excuses around as some kind of validation for their hero.

Tyson = Most Overrated Athlete Ever

[tastystaci]

No doubt...

"Cus died and he was never the same."
"He went to prison and it messed up his head."
"He didn't train hard and he was partying."
"He didn't take his medication."
"He did take his medication."

Blah, blah, blah, blah...

The excuses are never ending.

Here is the truth, for those that want to accept it.

Mike Tyson was a fighter who showed a lot of promise, but never fulfilled his expectations (or even came close). People loved him because he was a great power puncher that was exciting to watch. He was also a mental midget who could never handle adversity and never beat another truly elite fighter of his generation.

People want to hold on to the myth of Tyson because they grew up idolizing him and they believe if they let go of that vicious image, they will be letting go of a piece of their childhood. I grew up watching and loving Mike's style, too, but at some point, you have to think rationally.

His resume is absolutely weak and he was completely dominated by two other great fighters of his generation.

If any other athlete in any other sport received the amount of excuses and free passes that Tyson does, people would laugh it off as some kind of joke. For some reason, otherwise perfectly reasonable people toss these excuses around as some kind of validation for their hero.

Tyson = Most Overrated Athlete Ever

Can you say, "hitting the nail on the head"?

[~primetime~]

Tyson = Most Overrated Athlete Ever

I think you are right...no other athlete comes to mind...

have you seen all the EA commericials of Tyson knocking out Ali?

they make me shake my head in disgust...

but hey, I guess that is what everyone wants from that game, to be able to play as Tyson...

[RedBlackAttack]

but hey, I guess that is what everyone wants from that game, to be able to play as Tyson...

...and that is what most people want to believe.

Let me make this point clear... I loved Mike Tyson as a kid. I grew up in the 80s, too. There was a time when I thought that Mike was the greatest fighter I had ever seen. Then, I grew up and realized the truth.

Even as an adult, I openly cheered for Mike both times against Evander and even diluted myself into believing that he had a chance against Lewis (even though, deep down, I knew he was going to get dismantled).

I was as big a Tyson fan as anyone on this board. There came a point, though, where I had to examine why I rooted for this guy and why I was willing to discard the facts of his underwhelming career in favor of embracing the myth.

I wanted to believe that the guy I watched crush everyone through my early introduction to boxing was what I always wanted him to be. I've gone back and watched his early fights since my realization and it is readily apparent just how bad the competition was in the mid-80s.

Tyson always had major flaws and had he been pushed by a fighter the caliber of Bowe or Lewis or Holyfield early in his career, he would have folded like he always did when he faced adversity. Tyson is absolutely no better than the fourth best heavyweight of his own generation (maybe lower) and people are still clinging to this myth that he was the best ever at 19.

[lefthook00]

Bowe. Too big and strong and too good at using his size/strength in his prime.

[Gundress]

No doubt...

"Cus died and he was never the same."
"He went to prison and it messed up his head."
"He didn't train hard and he was partying."
"He didn't take his medication."
"He did take his medication."

Blah, blah, blah, blah...

The excuses are never ending.

Here is the truth, for those that want to accept it.

Mike Tyson was a fighter who showed a lot of promise, but never fulfilled his expectations (or even came close). People loved him because he was a great power puncher that was exciting to watch. He was also a mental midget who could never handle adversity and never beat another truly elite fighter of his generation.

People want to hold on to the myth of Tyson because they grew up idolizing him and they believe if they let go of that vicious image, they will be letting go of a piece of their childhood. I grew up watching and loving Mike's style, too, but at some point, you have to think rationally.

His resume is absolutely weak and he was completely dominated by two other great fighters of his generation.

If any other athlete in any other sport received the amount of excuses and free passes that Tyson does, people would laugh it off as some kind of joke. For some reason, otherwise perfectly reasonable people toss these excuses around as some kind of validation for their hero.

Tyson = Most Overrated Athlete Ever

You're right about Tyson never proving himself against the best.

You're wrong about discrediting Tyson in fights where he was clearly no longer the same fighter. It was visible as day he wasn't the same man when he came up short. You'd actually have to study footage of the man to know the difference between a prime Tyson and one who was past it.

The problems Tyson came against weren't experienced by the other great Heavyweights. Did Dundee die on Ali? No. Don't act like losing arguably the greatest trainer of all time wouldn't have adversely affected Ali's career. That'd just be dumb.

So at the end of the day we guess. Tyson was clearly a great fighter at his best but we don't know how great he was. Hence no one really rates him in the first half of the top 10. I see no problem putting him in the second half however. If not there, he's in the top 15. That's pretty universal among historians. And it's not over rating the man. It's making a safe guess.

[RedBlackAttack]

You're right about Tyson never proving himself against the best.

You're wrong about discrediting Tyson in fights where he was clearly no longer the same fighter. It was visible as day he wasn't the same man when he came up short. You'd actually have to study footage of the man to know the difference between a prime Tyson and one who was past it.

The problems Tyson came against weren't experienced by the other great Heavyweights. Did Dundee die on Ali? No. Don't act like losing arguably the greatest trainer of all time wouldn't have adversely affected Ali's career. That'd just be dumb.

So at the end of the day we guess. Tyson was clearly a great fighter at his best but we don't know how great he was. Hence no one really rates him in the first half of the top 10. I see no problem putting him in the second half however. If not there, he's in the top 15. That's pretty universal among historians. And it's not over rating the man. It's making a safe guess.

:yawn:

I've heard all of the excuses, so save your breath. I've also seen every Tyson fight, including many of his amateur bouts. The funny thing to me is that when he got out of prison, Tyson went back to doing exactly what he had done in the mid-80s to earn his unbeatable reputation... Dominating bums.

He KOed Peter McNeeley, Buster Mathis Jr., Frank Bruno, Bruce Seldon...

One thing about Tyson was that, if he was better than a fighter, he would absolutely dominate them, regardless of whether or not it was a complete bum like McNeeley or a pretty good fighter like Bruno. He made a lot of pretty good fighters look really bad, which is why so many people became so fascinated with him.

After he tore apart Bruno and Seldon, I remember everyone saying that "he is back" and "he is unbeatable." Most people don't remember this (or choose to forget it), but very few people thought Holyfield would make it through a few rounds with Tyson. Mike had his head movement against Seldon and Bruno... He was hitting hard to the head and body... He looked like the same guy that dominated the division in the mid-80s.

The fact is, he was the same guy that dominated the class in the mid-80s. The only problem was, he never had to face a guy like Holyfield. As soon as Evander came out and showed no fear of Tyson and actually began roughing him up with veteran 'dirtiness,' Tyson's flimsy mental capacity shown through and he stopped moving his head and became strictly a head hunter.

Then, after Holyfield absolutely toyed with him and KOed him, Tyson was over-the-hill... At the grand old age of 29... And after everyone had proclaimed that he was 'back' after dominating Bruno and Seldon, two guys who were comparable to the best competition he faced in the 80s.

That was always something that interested me.... Tyson became 'over the hill' when it suited his fans. Sorry... That isn't how it works. He was in great condition and coming off of two of his biggest wins heading into the Holyfield fight. He was far from over the hill... He was in over his head against a guy that was flat-out better than him.... That was the problem, not his age or condition or trainer.

Boxing is a sport that is about more than just who hits hardest and who looks the toughest. When you are going against a fellow great fighter, you have to be able to adapt during the fight and, sometimes, during a round. Tyson never showed any ability to do that. It had nothing to do with Cus and nothing to do with any personal problems he was having outside of the ring.... He was just not an intelligent fighter. He was very strong and showed some pretty good skill at a young age, but when it came to ring smarts, he was pathetic.

Tyson always lacked what separates the good fighters from the great fighters... He couldn't adapt during the course of a fight and he showed absolutely no ability to control his temper.

These shortcomings won't show against guys like Mitch Blood Green or Tony Tubbs or Frank Bruno... They will against Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis.

Now, throw some more excuses at me. The guy is flat-out overrated. There is no way around it.

[RedBlackAttack]

Hence no one really rates him in the first half of the top 10. I see no problem putting him in the second half however. If not there, he's in the top 15. That's pretty universal among historians. And it's not over rating the man. It's making a safe guess.

The Top 10-15 of what, btw? Please tell me you are not talking about pound-for-pound, all-time. Even if you are talking about Top 10-15 heavyweights all-time, that is ridiculous.

He should not be rated in front of Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, or Riddick Bowe... And those are just guys that were in his own f#cking era.

[Smokee]

Ya'll are ****ing retarded

Tyson in his prime would've ****ed Bowe up. Arguably Ali. Yeah i said it. So many retards love to reinvent history but Bowe was nowhere near the level of Tyson in his prime. Tyson WAS boxing back then. A whole era. He even transcended the sport to non boxing fans watching him.

Say what you want about the competition, but i'll bet you they all would've held their own today in the heavyweight division. Its just that Tyson made people look bad because they were scared of him once he built up his rep. It was crazy how feared Tyson was within boxing at one point where boxers would choke from fear of getting hit. Never seen anything like that in boxing.

[~primetime~]

Ya'll are ****ing retarded

Tyson in his prime would've ****ed Bowe up. Arguably Ali. Yeah i said it. So many retards love to reinvent history but Bowe was nowhere near the level of Tyson in his prime. Tyson WAS boxing back then. A whole era. He even transcended the sport to non boxing fans watching him.

Say what you want about the competition, but i'll bet you they all would've held their own today in the heavyweight division. Its just that Tyson made people look bad because they were scared of him once he built up his rep. It was crazy how feared Tyson was within boxing at one point where boxers would choke from fear of getting hit. Never seen anything like that in boxing.

Tyson in his prime would have gotten the piss beat out of him by Holyfeild...

oh wait, that pretty much happened...

[Smokee]

Tyson in his prime would have gotten the piss beat out of him by Holyfeild...

oh wait, that pretty much happened...

How many times do people have to tell you that was when Tyson got stupid and crazy, painted his face, was biting off ears, bought a tiger, post rape ****ed up kid. That isn't Tyson in his prime.

This argument is as retarded as the Kobe comparisons to MJ

[~primetime~]

the first time Holyfeild and Tyson fought Evander was 34 YEARS OLD!!!

Tyson had already been through a few fights post jail, knocking out tomato cans like he did before he was in jail, and he was what, the ripe old age of 28 at the time he first fought Evander?



I find it hard to belive things would have been any different and it is all speculation anyway...

and even with speculation, all the eveidence points to Evander beating his ass in the ring anyway...there is much more reason to assume Evander would have won pre-jail than Tyson...

[iamgine]

Tyson had everything a boxer would want at one point. Legendary trainer, blinding speed, animal ferocity, multiple combinations, advanced techniques, deadly power, impeccable defense and ultimate confidence. Unbeatable. It's sad he lacked the discipline and desire to maintain those things without somebody helping him. He'd KO anyone from any era on any given night.

[RedBlackAttack]

Tyson had everything a boxer would want at one point.

Nope... He always lacked intelligence... Inside and out of the ring. He also always lacked discipline... Inside and outside the ring. Cus let him get away with everything just short of murder.

Tyson is/always was a mental midget and that is a serious pitfall for any fighter. Boxing is about more than physical tools. It is called the sweet science for a reason.

An old Holyfield would have owned any version of Tyson. The argument that Tyson's prime spanned from 18-20 years of age is laughable at best. People refuse to accept that he fought NO ONE during his short reign at the top of the division.

It is an interesting coincidence that Tyson suddenly 'got old' when he started finally fighting guys that could match his skills in the ring.

...the most overrated athlete of all-time and it isn't even close. People just don't want to accept it.