Charles Barkley vs Malone (In Their Primes ages 23-32 Head to Head)

[Sir Charles]

Duncan is by far a better player than Barkley ever was. More polished offensive player

[COLOR="blue"]More Polished Offensive Player? Pleaseeee [/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]1-Barkley`s 2-Point FG% is

58% (Season) on 21.6 PPG and 55% (Play-Offs Season) on 22.5 PPG (16 Seasons)

He did that 5-6 Times (and around and 64% twice)

2-Only Player to Score 20 + PPG on 60% + 2-Point FG% in the last 19 Years Not Named Shaq[/COLOR]

http://www.rootzoo.com/articles/view...cs-Primer_3549

Putting it together: Offensive Rating. By now, you're probably impatient for a number that tells us [COLOR="Blue"]how efficient a player is overall with the possessions that he uses,[/COLOR] and the answer comes in the form of Dean Oliver's Offensive Rating (OR). The formula is a bit complicated to reproduce here (I refer you to Oliver's excellent Basketball on Paper for its full derivation), but it suffices to say that [COLOR="blue"]Offensive Rating provides a rating of how many points a player scores per 100 possessions that he uses while on the floor.[/COLOR] The league's typical rating has varied throughout history, but today stands at around 107.

[COLOR="DarkRed"]The best OR belong to jump-shooting guards and, to a lesser extent, high-percentage post players. The career leaders are Steve Kerr (122.06), Reggie Miller (121.48), Magic Johnson (120.79), John Stockton (120.55), and Kiki Vandeweghe (119.49).[/COLOR]


[COLOR="Navy"]In general, the more possessions that a player uses, the lower we expect his OR to be, because player who use more possessions have to use more possessions in precarious situations[/COLOR].

[COLOR="DarkRed"]If a player has a high career Usage Rate and a high OR, that indicates that he is a monster on offense[/COLOR].[COLOR="Blue"] Magic Johnson falls into this category, as does Charles Barkley (119.31)[/COLOR], Adran Dantley (118.40), the incomparable Michael Jordan (who, with the highest career Usage Rate, had a career OR of 117.97, the 13th best in history), and Dirk Nowitzki (117.80).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Offensive Rating


NBA/ABA
Rank Player ORtg

1. Steve Kerr 122.06 (CG)
2. Reggie Miller 121.48 (SG)
3. Magic Johnson* 120.79 (PG-Point F)
4. John Stockton* 120.55 (PG)
5. Chris Paul 120.54 (PG)
6. Kiki Vandeweghe 119.49 (SF-SG)
7. Sidney Moncrief 119.40 (CG-PG)
[COLOR="blue"]8. Charles Barkley* 119.31 (PF)[/COLOR]

[COLOR="blue"]More Polished[/COLOR]?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ct_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for True Shooting Pct


NBA/ABA
Rank Player TS%
1. Cedric Maxwell .6294
2. Artis Gilmore .6227
3. James Donaldson .6177
4. Adrian Dantley* .6166
5. Jeff Ruland .6152
6. Reggie Miller .6139
[COLOR="blue"]7. Charles Barkley* .6120 [/COLOR]
8. Magic Johnson* .6095
9. John Stockton* .6081

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ct_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Effective Field Goal Pct

NBA/ABA
Rank Player eFG%

1. Artis Gilmore .5820
2. Shaquille O'Neal .5818
3. Mark West .5804
4. Steve Johnson .5722
5. Darryl Dawkins .5721
6. James Donaldson .5706
7. Brent Barry .5703
8. Dwight Howard .5679
9. Bo Outlaw .5678
10. Steve Kerr .5642
11. Jeff Ruland .5641
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .5595
13. Bobby Jones .5583
[COLOR="blue"]14. Charles Barkley* .5578 [/COLOR]
15. Kevin McHale* .5554

Offensive Skills:

[COLOR="blue"]Could Duncan Shoot the Mid J Like Barkley?
Could Duncan Spin Like Barkley ?
*Barkley is the Precusor of Shaq`s Black Tornados
Could Duncan Go 1 on 1 Off the Dribble Like Barkley?
Could Duncan Handle the Ball Like Barkley?
Could Duncan Pass like Barkley?
Could DUncan Game Create like Barkley?
Could DUncan Lead Breaks and FInish OFf with Assists and Dunks Going Coast to Coast?[/COLOR]

[COLOR="blue"]*Barkley Created Most Ilegal Defenses in the 80s and 90s
*Barkley is the Player that Had More Defensive Rotations Per Game Up Until Shaq
*Barkley and Shaq are one of the Cuases of the 5 Second Back to the Basket Rule Change
*Barkley Is the Best International Olympic Player of All Time Under Zone Rules[/COLOR]

Proof of Barkley`s Statistical Overall Polished Skill Efficiency:

http://www.basketballreference.com/l...?stat=eff&lg=n


Career EFF Leaders

Player EFF Seasons

[COLOR="Orange"]1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]2 Bill Russell 31.71 13 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOliveGreen"]3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]6 Larry Bird 29.77 13 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="orange"]7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="blue"]10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16 [/COLOR]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1415

More Fun with Statistical +/-

Posted by Neil Paine on February 27, 2009

The other day, I talked at some length about “statistical plus/minus,” which is just a regression of pure adjusted +/- on the conventional boxscore stats. In that post, I looked into the possibility of predicting the following season using a weighted average of the 3 previous seasons’ SPM scores, but I realize that I sort of skimmed over the statistical +/- metric itself — what are its strengths and weaknesses? What kind of players does it overrate and underrate?


In an effort to better understand the metric and answer these questions, I calculated the career leaders in SPM (combined NBA + ABA, minimum 15,000 career MP) through last Saturday’s games. Here’s the list:

Player Pos G Min SPM
---------------+--+----------+--------+------
[COLOR="Red"]michaeljordan G 1072 41013 12.85[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]wiltchamberlain C 1045 47859 11.59[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]davidrobinson C 987 34272 10.79[/COLOR]
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]lebronjames F 444 18083 10.00[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]charlesbarkley F 1073 39330 9.03[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]k.abdul-jabbar C 1560 57446 9.01
magicjohnson G 906 33245 8.82[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]larrybird F 897 34443 8.81[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]juliuserving F 1243 45227 8.57[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]shaquilleo'neal C 1089 39103 8.21[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Black"]bobpettit F 792 30690 7.87[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Sienna"]clydedrexler G 1086 37537 7.79[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOliveGreen"]oscarrobertson G 1040 43886 7.75[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]hakeemolajuwon C 1238 44222 7.70[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]elginbaylor F 846 33863 7.59[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]karlmalone F 1476 54852 7.50[/COLOR]
andreikirilenko F 533 16671 7.37
[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]timduncan F 877 32481 7.30[/COLOR]

far superior defensive player, and this shouldn't even be a debate. I should be shocked at this, but im not, because there's a high total of Kobe Bryant fans who think he is better than Jordan. They mustard up some stat's that fit their case and then try to argue you down, send you hate mail, I mean, it's a crazy world of crazy fans.

I agree Duncan was the Better Defensive Player Overall but You Also Must Admit that [COLOR="blue"]Barkley the Better Floor Defender (same as Garnett, Malone, Webber over DUncan)[/COLOR] And ALSO, ONE MUST ADMIT DUNCAN...Played with Another Top 3 Center (Top 3 PER even in the 2000s) *Helps Alot on Your Defense and DRT (same as Mark Eaton with Karl Malone) and NOW PLAYS AS A CENTER next to PF.

[COLOR="Blue"]You Shall Also Admit Barkley was a WAY BETTER OFFENSIVE PLAYER: SCORING, GAME CREATING WISE (Goes Beyond Stats) AND EFFICIENCY WISE[/COLOR]

As for Malone and Barkley, yeah, I do think Barkley was better than Malone. I feel that Malone was apart of a product where 2 players made eachother (Malone & Stockton).

[COLOR="Navy"]True...The Problem with Malone and Stockton they where Not Multi Dimensional They Where as Purest as PF and PG there could be so They Could Not Make Others Better Through Skills That Wen`t Beyond Their Positions:[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Duncan is sort of Multi-Dimensional but not as much as Barkley. He is a CF that plus Guard Centers and Big PFs . Can Pass from there like that of a PF, Post Up Like a PF, Score like a Pf and also...Block like a Center etc...

Barkley Could do G-SF-PF-C Thins In One Motion, Was A Total Multi Posiontional/Dimensional Player like very few others Big O, Magic, Bird to name some...[/COLOR]

But I would Take Karl Malone over Duncan if i Have a Passing Running Team by Miles a 1985 to 1995 Karl Malone was a Monster...In a That Had That Style...Malone > Duncan

Greets

[Bigsmoke]

Player Pos G Min SPM
---------------+--+----------+--------+------
[COLOR="Red"]michaeljordan G 1072 41013 12.85[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]wiltchamberlain C 1045 47859 11.59[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]davidrobinson C 987 34272 10.79[/COLOR]
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]lebronjames F 444 18083 10.00[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]charlesbarkley F 1073 39330 9.03[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]k.abdul-jabbar C 1560 57446 9.01
magicjohnson G 906 33245 8.82[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]larrybird F 897 34443 8.81[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]juliuserving F 1243 45227 8.57[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]shaquilleo'neal C 1089 39103 8.21[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Black"]bobpettit F 792 30690 7.87[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Sienna"]clydedrexler G 1086 37537 7.79[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOliveGreen"]oscarrobertson G 1040 43886 7.75[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]hakeemolajuwon C 1238 44222 7.70[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]elginbaylor F 846 33863 7.59[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]karlmalone F 1476 54852 7.50[/COLOR]
andreikirilenko F 533 16671 7.37
[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]timduncan F 877 32481 7.30[/COLOR]

]

those stats are wack and you know that.

^^^ i guess David Robinson is better than Shaq and Hakeem now huh

andrei kirilenko over Tim Duncan

[branslowski]

those stats are wack and you know that.

^^^ i guess David Robinson is better than Shaq and Hakeem now huh

andrei kirilenko over Tim Duncan

My point exactly...He also has some list above that has Steve Kerr and Cedric Maxwell at the top of them to prove some point to prop Barkley...

How can anyone take Sir-Charles seriously...

Just a wall of a bunch of BS Stats..I mean, you can look at them and say, "OK", but you would fail completely if you base your whole opinion on them....I love stats..But not overboard sh!t....It's like a casual liquor drinker, a few here in there.....compared to a flaming Alcoholic.....

[chitownsfinest]

My point exactly...He also has some list above that has Steve Kerr and Cedric Maxwell at the top of them to prove some point to prop Barkley...

How can anyone take Sir-Charles seriously...

Just a wall of a bunch of BS Stats..I mean, you can look at them and say, "OK", but you would fail completely if you base your whole opinion on them....I love stats..But not overboard sh!t....It's like a casual liquor drinker, a few here in there.....compared to a flaming Alcoholic.....

Yeah one of his stats list had Cliff Levingston a better defender then Pippen and Jordan. LMAO

[Bigsmoke]

My point exactly...He also has some list above that has Steve Kerr and Cedric Maxwell at the top of them to prove some point to prop Barkley...

How can anyone take Sir-Charles seriously...

Just a wall of a bunch of BS Stats..I mean, you can look at them and say, "OK", but you would fail completely if you base your whole opinion on them....I love stats..But not overboard sh!t....It's like a casual liquor drinker, a few here in there.....compared to a flaming Alcoholic.....

Banned Sir Charles FTW?

[BlackMamba24]

barkley = garbage, fat, unathletic TRASH, piece of ****. ****ing loser.

malone > barkley.

[IInvented]

[COLOR="Blue"]If Barkley owned Duncan at ages 34-36 (Duncan 21-23) as a back and knee crippled aged overweight man[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Navy"]And Malone held is how against Tim Duncan at grandpa ages of 34-40 (Duncan ages 21-27)[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Makes Me Wonder What they Could Have Done to Duncan under REAL MEN PHYSICAL RULES of the 80s and 90s[/COLOR]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=duncati01

Don`t Underrate Malone ..Duncan was Better SLIGHTLY and Only as a Center-Forward that never had to do more on his own than Malone or ofcourse Barkley...


[COLOR="Blue"]BEST PF EVER = BARKLEY[/COLOR]

2ND = DUNCAN or Maybe Malone

[COLOR="navy"]In a Fast Paced Game Id Pick Malone Without Hesitation[/COLOR]

You need to get off Barkley's nuts... he's top 5 PF all time but no way he's ****ing with Malone or Duncan...

[IInvented]

barkley = garbage, fat, unathletic TRASH, piece of ****. ****ing loser.

malone > barkley.

Yo, is this KB42P@H?

[Sir Charles]

You are Comparing Hakeem to Robinson Career not in their Primes:

Dot it for 1985-86 to 1994-95 and Compare him to Robinson BOTH PLAY-OFFS (even more Important) and SEASON and Hakeem will Show as Better

*Do The Same For All The Others from ages 22 to 32 (usually Prime Years) in EFF; PER and Statistical +/- and they Will Show What I Mean.

but my friend: THOU SHALL ADMIT!....that Robinson had Way More Responsabilities than Hakeem, Inferior Teamates (Lesser Deep of a Team) but Yes Hakeem was Better, He Was but Slightly (unlike many idiots tend to think) and it was pretty much do to his edge as a 1 on 1 Scorer.

*Don let the Hype Bias you from the 95 Hakeem vs Robinson 1 on 1 meeting ...as the reason why Hakeem was Better than Robinson (Its because of other Reasons) Not True...

BTW i ofcourse predicted the outcome of this meeting against many laughs of friends whom had hyped Robinson because of his MVP....

[COLOR="Blue"]Also remember, this is a measure that must take into account Players that have MORE RESPONSABITIES than OTHERS...Role Players to a More of an Extent are Provided and Made Their Jobs Easier by ....Superstars and All Stars next to them so sometimes they appear in the Top[/COLOR]: [COLOR="Red"]Jordan and Pippen MADE KERR for example....as total Creators of the Triange Offense which lead to the Whole Other Teams Focusing on them for Open Shots for Kerr (rarely missed)[/COLOR]...

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]In the case of Maxwell: well he was very much Underrated. He WAS ALWAYS ONE OF THE MOST EFFICIENT SCORERS IN THE NBA: greatly skilled SF-PF, solid Rebounder and him and Kevin McHale did the Dirty Job in 1 on 1 Defensive Department in the Celtics having many time to Guard a Player BIrd couldn`t and didn`t wan+`t to...So in the case of Maxwell you are Underrating a Great Player...All Star Caliber[/COLOR]...in the case of Kerr I`ve already explained: Jordan-Pippen made Kerr....

Clearer?

Regarding these examples......would have Karl Malone would have had much success Scoring Wise if he had to Design the Game Creating Job from Inside at the PF instead of having Stockton the BEST PASSER EVER and a SG and SF next to Him as 2nd and 3rd Game Creating Job Doers as Charles Barkley did?

Would have Duncan been as Succesfull Physically as being the 2nd Game Creator for his Team? . Duncan and Malone had Two Interior Defending Monsters with the Highest DRT in the NBA next to them for help Interiory (Duncan a Top 3-5 PER Player in the NBA) a Great Help For Your Own Defensive Stats to Improove with as Lesser Loead Taken and Very Few Game Creating Responsabilities (Pippen had more of a Load than Jordan in the Bulls) not to mention Real PGs that where unselfish and though team 1st....

That shows how good a Player is according to the amount of responsabilities he has...and Charles prooved to BE IN THE ELITE OF ALL TIME (way underrated from the Media-Fans-Hype-Rememberance) while having Way Lesser Wepons than Duncan and Malone-Stockton on his Teams....and Had To Carry Way More Load....

All The Top Players of All Time are in The Top of BROKEN DOWN STATS COINCIDENTLY AND STRANGELY...and Every Time There is an Even More of a Breaking Down of These...Barkley is prooved once again, once again! in the Spot he should be put in...this i knew way before these Broken Stats ofcourse...

[D-Rose]

We get it you moron, you think Barkley is the GOAT, now shut the **** up.

[Sir Charles]

We get it you moron, you think Barkley is the GOAT, now shut the **** up.

He is not that is either Wilt, Kareem or Jordan are the GOATs


Barkley is a Top 10 but most kiddos and biased media hyped fans wil put him in the Top 20 or even less (the hating on Barkley is historic even decades ago)

A Top 5 Statisical +/- of All Time
A Top 10 EFF of All Time
Top 10 PER Player of All Time

Can`t be ranked below that ...it goes against Reality, Impact and also Against the Other Greats in the Top 5-10-20-30 + of All Time...

[D-Rose]

He is not that is either Wilt, Kareem or Jordan


Barkley is a Top 10 but most kiddos and biased media hyped fans wil put him in the Top 20 or even less (the hating on Barkley is historic even decades ago)

A Top 5 Statisical +/- of All Time
A Top 10 EFF of All Time
Top 10 PER Player of All Time

Can`t be ranked below that ...it goes against Reality, Impact and also Against the Other Greats in the Top 5-10-20-30 + of All Time...

You aren't top ten no matter what if you haven't won a title. That isn't even debatable even witha ll those retarted stats.

[Sir Charles]

You aren't top ten no matter what if you haven't won a title. That isn't even debatable even witha ll those retarted stats.

Ring thing again

We are not analizing teams or rings but Players....

You are just pissed because Real Evidence Shows...that Bryant is Not Even Close to as Efficient and Dominant Player as Many GOATs not just Barkley

Why is is Impact less than Many Others?

- Because He Is Not an Efficient. His EFF is Very Low. He doesnt Make Others Better, Jobs Easier (HE NEEDS THE BEST STARING 5 IN THE GAME, A TOP 10 ACTIVE PER PLAYER AND BEFORE SHAQ and full of GREAT ROLE PLAYERS to Win)

- Doesn`t Draw Double Teams in the way MJ, Barkley, Shaq etc did and Now Lebron..forcing whole Defenses and Players to Go Away from their Man making it easier to Assist etc..

- His Defensive Abilities are Overrated and Prooven to be Statistically (Wade > Bryant as Defender)

- He is Not as Unstoppable Offensive Player per Possesion

- He is a Good Passer but with a Top Offensive Rating Player Playing the Frontcourt he should be getting 8 APG for the Whole Season.

Why can`t he Impact like the Hakeem`s, Robinsons, Shaq`s, Barkley`s, Jordan`s, Lebrons etc.....?

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Because he All He Does is Play 20 ft from the Rim and Try to Create a 1 on 1 Situation for a Nice Looking Jumper to happy his own ego 1 on 1 (which he is great) "Wow I Schooled You" but that is not as Efficient as Getting to the Rim for Higher % Shots, Drawing Double Teams for Easy Assits, Rebounding on Both Ends, Shot Blocking, Stealing, Being a Top ORT Player, Being a Top DRT Player etc BEING A TOTAL BEAST![/COLOR]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[COLOR="Orange"]Bryant`s game is more like a Jordan-Miller Mix [/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]but VERY FAR AWAY from Jordan`s Capacity to Be Everywhere on the Court and Intimidate as a Driver, Post Up Shooter and Defender all at the Same Time do to his Superior Athletic Gifts, Speed, Power, Strength, Stamina, Leaping Ability, Hands, Ball Handling, Court Vision, Passing Game and ofcourse Agressiveness and Will to Win etc etc[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]*Reason Why He Can`t Impact like MJ...UUU I WANABEE LIKE MIKE[/COLOR]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Kobey`s Game Impact Wise is like Bird (all though i would take a 1981-1988 Bird over Bryant when healthy in Heartbeat) with the Difference Bird Makes Teams Better because of PASSING, GAME CREATING, REBOUNDING, INTERIOR D AND REAL...REAL LEADERSHIP...SHOWN THROUGH HIS EFF (not per minute based) and STATISTICAL +/-....[/COLOR]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[COLOR="Blue"]Barkley is a Top 5-10 Of All Time and Evidence is Found Right There Next to Other Greats

EFF (Look at All The Greats that Make Others Better: Bird and Russel at Top do to Extreame Fundamentals)
PER (Look All The Greats Next to Him and On Top AS IMPACT PLAYERS: Jordan)
Statistical +/- (Look at All The Greatest Next to Him and On Top as PRODUCITVE PLAYERS: Jordan) [/COLOR]

The Media Might Not Like It
The Fans Might Not Like It
Others In The Game Might Not but the
(They Never Did Anyhow )

EVIDENCE is Everywhere...and I Told This Before of the Finding of Broken Down Stats (and when another appears like Statistical +/-, it prooves once again what i`ve always said)

[D.J.]

Barkley in his prime was better than a prime Malone, but Malone has a huge advantage when it comes to longevity. Karl Malone played for 16-17 years missing only a minimal amount of games. He was a gym rat and was in excellent physical condition right until his final playing days. Barkley disliked working out and was frequently injured. 10 years into their respective careers, Malone was still healthy, putting up great numbers, and still going deep into the playoffs with the Jazz. Barkley on the other hand, was considering retirement because his knees and back were gone.

One aspect of Barkley's game that people ignore is his defense. He was not a bad defender, but rather a lazy one. When Charles wanted to be, he was all over the court and could guard any position, 1-5. In many cases, he was incredibly lazy and gave up easy baskets. One reason in Charles' defense as to why opposing big men scored on him was because he lacked the height. He often went up against players four, five, and six inches taller than him. However, the main reason was because of his laziness.

I grew up a Barkley fan and loved him. Give me a prime Barkley to start a team because he was a great all-around player. However, give me Karl Malone to be competitive for many years in the future because he took care of himself and would rarely miss a game.

[Horatio33]

G[COLOR="YellowGreen"]E[COLOR="Blue"]T [COLOR="Red"]A [/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR="Orange"] L[COLOR="Green"]I[COLOR="Magenta"]F[COLOR="DarkOrange"]E [COLOR="DarkOrchid"]S[COLOR="Pink"]I[COLOR="Plum"]R [COLOR="Blue"]C[COLOR="YellowGreen"]H[COLOR="Cyan"]A[COLOR="Yellow"]R[COLOR="Sienna"]L[COLOR="Red"]E[COLOR="Navy"]S[COLOR="Red"]![/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]