The 00's = the death of defense in the NBA? No contact league?

[stephanieg]

1. Leaguewide Ortg/Drtg (they must be identical, 'natch) and TS% have remained fairly consistent since 1980 except for some highly volatile action from the lock out 1999 season until 2004 or 2005 or so. Current levels since then are back to normal and you can draw a line between now and any normal year in the 90s or 80s.

2. Team or league pace has zero influence on high usage number one options such as Jordan, Kobe, West, Bird, Dr. J, Shaq, etc. FGA do though. They WILL get their 18-25 FGA whether the pace is 105, 95, or (god forbid this ever happens) 85. Faced with less global FGA, their teams would be idiotic otherwise. "Let's take FGA away from our most productive players and give them to less efficient players!" No. Jerry West is getting 23 FGA whether it's 1969 or 2009.

3. Jordan couldn't average 45 ppg unless he is taking well over 30 shots a game, something which hasn't been done since Wilt did in 1963. I'm not saying he couldn't do it (he came awfully close during the 37 ppg season) but he'd get kinda tired you'd think.

4. The 1998-2007 Spurs, the 2004 Pistons, and the 2008 Celtics are some of the greatest defensive teams of all time (less than 100 Drtg, sometimes by a lot).

Any opinion you have on basketball "eras" must not contradict the first two facts. Or you better have suitable hand waves available.

Personally I enjoyed the older defensive rules which allowed more bumping and grinding on the perimeter. I enjoy watching old games and I enjoyed the Olympics when Kobe, Wade, and so on were both bodied up by foreign teams and were allowed themselves to display their defensive skills at full. I think the NBA would be better if they allowed more physicality on the perimeter. To believe any of this affects whether Jordan-Drexler-Kobe-Wade are dominating any league they're in is crazy.

[Fatal9]

1. Leaguewide Ortg/Drtg (they must be identical, 'natch) and TS% have remained fairly consistent since 1980 except for some highly volatile action from the lock out 1999 season until 2004 or 2005 or so. Current levels since then are back to normal and you can draw a line between now and any normal year in the 90s or 80s.

2. Team or league pace has zero influence on high usage number one options such as Jordan, Kobe, West, Bird, Dr. J, Shaq, etc. FGA do though. They WILL get their 18-25 FGA whether the pace is 105, 95, or (god forbid this ever happens) 85. Faced with less global FGA, their teams would be idiotic otherwise. "Let's take FGA away from our most productive players and give them to less efficient players!" No. Jerry West is getting 23 FGA whether it's 1969 or 2009.

3. Jordan couldn't average 45 ppg unless he is taking well over 30 shots a game, something which hasn't been done since Wilt did in 1963. I'm not saying he couldn't do it (he came awfully close during the 37 ppg season) but he'd get kinda tired you'd think.

4. The 1998-2007 Spurs, the 2004 Pistons, and the 2008 Celtics are some of the greatest defensive teams of all time (less than 100 Drtg, sometimes by a lot).

Any opinion you have on basketball "eras" must not contradict the first two facts. Or you better have suitable hand waves available.

Personally I enjoyed the older defensive rules which allowed more bumping and grinding on the perimeter. I enjoy watching old games and I enjoyed the Olympics when Kobe, Wade, and so on were both bodied up by foreign teams and were allowed themselves to display their defensive skills at full. I think the NBA would be better if they allowed more physicality on the perimeter. To believe any of this affects whether Jordan-Drexler-Kobe-Wade are dominating any league they're in is crazy.

[bruceblitz]

He does the exact same thing you do. You both are overly aggressive and insulting when trying to get your point across. You both don't listen to a word anyone says. You both use quotes, articles and self made youtube videos to "prove" points. I am a Jordan fan, I think Jordan is GOAT and I also think your posts make people HATE Jordan. You aren't helping Jordan's case. You aren't making people respect him or swaying their opinion into thinking he is GOAT. You are making people who love Kobe love Kobe and hate Jordan even more. People like you cause such huge rifts between athletes when there shouldn't be one. It should be easily possible to love Jordan AND Bryant but you easily help ruin that

All people like you and KB42PAH do is piss everyone off and make us hate the player you are vouching for. If you really love Jordan the way you say you do. Stop coming on message boards and posting 30 times a day attacking people. Make some youtube videos of Jordan that aren't meant to discredit other players and leave it at that. Fans like you whether its music, sports, movies etc are bad. I feel sorry for anyone that has fans like you

OK, so 3 years ago when I saw fans out there trying to discredit Michael Jordan, I should have just sat on my hands and not created youtube video sections like the ones you see on these channels?

http://www.youtube.com/mustseebbtv
http://www.youtube.com/bruceblitzconfession
http://www.youtube.com/theAIRJORDANblitz

Everyone from hoopsencyclopedia himself, to some of the quietest Jordan fans keep in contact with me. They appreciate what I do. They feel it needs to be done. I don't think you have been following what I do long enough. You don't see the multitudes of requests to defend Jordan because of something someone said. Do I appease them all? No. I just do whatever I feel like doing in the end. When someone uses selective editing to make a "Zone" defense, that features nothing but man to man with rotation help defense, and they go on to discredit Jordan's era saying he had free walks to the basket and faced isolation, seems that I was the only one to step up to the plate and defend him immediately. I don't think you understand where I'm coming from, you aren't giving me proper credit for the actual facts I present, and you need to stop being so judgemental of my opinions. I also suspect that you notice I respond to you, and you respond to me, because I am a hell of a lot more realistic person than Alborz aka kb42pah. He's out of his ever-loving mind. Literally.

Someone makes a video like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kYBeNQdSCc

I responded with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE



The excuse making continued after the 2008 Finals with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQaVvf2VOsc

So I responded with these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeiWYttLME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QrGYmUf_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwYZDQvElc



A lot of the information you see me present is a RESPONSE. Keep that in mind why don't you?!!?! It's a response to blatant stupidity, excuse making, and slanting of the facts when the bottom line remains the same:

http://michaeljordansworld.com/compa...rent_stars.htm

Also they forget players on this link:
http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_nba_stars.htm

[juju151111]

OK, so 3 years ago when I saw fans out there trying to discredit Michael Jordan, I should have just sat on my hands and not created youtube video sections like the ones you see on these channels?

http://www.youtube.com/mustseebbtv
http://www.youtube.com/bruceblitzconfession
http://www.youtube.com/theAIRJORDANblitz

Everyone from hoopsencyclopedia himself, to some of the quietest Jordan fans keep in contact with me. They appreciate what I do. They feel it needs to be done. I don't think you have been following what I do long enough. You don't see the multitudes of requests to defend Jordan because of something someone said. Do I appease them all? No. I just do whatever I feel like doing in the end. When someone uses selective editing to make a "Zone" defense, that features nothing but man to man with rotation help defense, and they go on to discredit Jordan's era saying he had free walks to the basket and faced isolation, seems that I was the only one to step up to the plate and defend him immediately. I don't think you understand where I'm coming from, you aren't giving me proper credit for the actual facts I present, and you need to stop being so judgemental of my opinions. I also suspect that you notice I respond to you, and you respond to me, because I am a hell of a lot more realistic person than Alborz aka kb42pah. He's out of his ever-loving mind. Literally.

Someone makes a video like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kYBeNQdSCc

I responded with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE



The excuse making continued after the 2008 Finals with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQaVvf2VOsc

So I responded with these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeiWYttLME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QrGYmUf_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwYZDQvElc



A lot of the information you see me present is a RESPONSE. Keep that in mind why don't you?!!?! It's a response to blatant stupidity, excuse making, and slanting of the facts when the bottom line remains the same:

http://michaeljordansworld.com/compa...rent_stars.htm

Also they forget players on this link:
http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_nba_stars.htm

[madmax]

the most moronic statement i ever heard about today's players is that they are so awful fundamentally, thus the fg% and scoring is way down nowadays...that's complete nonsense - basketball like every other sports activity is evolving and players are getting better all the time, for a simple reason that they have time to master their game from the past greats. Therefore all the comparing of players from different eras with different rules is misleading and pointless... Every single player is a product of it's own era and not otherwise, it would be nice to construct a time machine and transport Wilt from the 60's into today's arenas just to see how he fares against our generation, but that's not possible...he was the greatest from his days, Jordan was the best 20 years ago. One thing is for sure - great players find ways to be great under any kind of rules

[bruceblitz]

the most moronic statement i ever heard about today's players is that they are so awful fundamentally, thus the fg% and scoring is way down nowadays...that's complete nonsense - basketball like every other sports activity is evolving and players are getting better all the time, for a simple reason that they have time to master their game from the past greats. Therefore all the comparing of players from different eras with different rules is misleading and pointless... Every single player is a product of it's own era and not otherwise, it would be nice to construct a time machine and transport Wilt from the 60's into today's arenas just to see how he fares against our generation, but that's not possible...he was the greatest from his days, Jordan was the best 20 years ago. One thing is for sure - great players find ways to be great under any kind of rules

Jordan was the best 20 years ago now? He was on the Bulls in 1998, this is 2009. Just sayin man, what the hell, 20 years ago?

When people say players today don't have the same fundamentals of the old school players, they mean shot selection, scoring within the flow of an offense, putting effort into defense every game, and things of that nature. You see more street-ball style skills in today's game, but less team oriented fundamentals. That's what they mean.

By the way, so you think sports automatically get better? Wrong there too. Ratings have never been as high as they were when Jordan was on top of the NBA so the silent majority disagrees with you. You also fail to take into account sports like Boxing that was much more exciting when Ali was on top, Mike Tyson or even the Sugar Ray Leonard/Hagler/Hearns era.

What you are deriving your opinions on is a misconception.

Look at football, in the NFL they don't allow contact on the wideout after 5 yards now, it allows for more passing in the game of football. Back in the day players like Johnny Unitas faced defenses that were allowed to smash wideouts at any time on any play.

You fail to take into account the margin of difficulty when facing physical defenses or playing in a finesse game. Sports today have become more finesse. That's a fact. Thankfully the UFC is still here.

[plowking]

Jordan would score the same this era, or even a little less if he played now.

Zone forces players to shoot more jumpshots, and stats prove this. (if anyone can find that thread where George Gervin said he could score more then 40 points this era, as this is where I provided the stats).

Jordan would have to shoot more jumpshots, especially threes, which he was not very good at for the first part of his career. Thus his scoring would most likely decrease for the first portion of his career.

Due to this, his FG% would most likely decrease as well to around 46-51% each season.

[bruceblitz]

NFL changes in the way the game is played:
Back in the day facemasking was legal, it was a takedown technique, there was no pass interference, there was no "horsecollar" rule, chop blocking wasn't called, etc. It was a more physical game. Just go watch a Dick Butkus or Walter Payton highlight reel if you don't believe me.

Boxing:
When Ali was champ they wore 8 ounce gloves, very little padding, now they wear 14-16 ounce gloves with more padding, the pace of the fights is nothing like the furious pace of Ali vs Frazier or Ali vs Foreman, for instance.

NBA:
Players were more team oriented in the Jordan era and back further, handchecking was allowed, physical play was coached, you paid the price for going to the rim, there was more of a violent attitude displayed by the players, there was no defensive 3 second rule or enforcing of a defensive 3 second rule so bigs would camp out in the paint and it was harder to get to the basket.

I can go on and on and on about this. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Just watch this video for a little better understanding about the difference in the NBA today compared to even the Jordan era, which wasn't that long ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-C-TvHqzA

Wilt Chamberlain was mauled. Mauling was a legal defensive tactic when Wilt played. A lot of people don't know that the last shot Wilt hit in the 100 point game was a 21 foot fadeaway over a double team. Wilt Chamberlain had a fadeaway.

[stephanieg]

the most moronic statement i ever heard about today's players is that they are so awful fundamentally, thus the fg% and scoring is way down nowadays...

Scoring is down because pace is down. Simple relationship. Scoring has increased as pace has increased in the past 3-4 years.

FG% is down slightly but TS% is the same due to increased numbers of three pointers (year by year since 1980 3P% and 3PA has increased and continues to do so). You can't look at FG% of players who takes a lot of three pointers -- nor leagues.

It also doesn't help there's not 4-5 dominant centers like there used to be.

...Jordan was the best 20 years ago...

Hey, 1998 wasn't all that long ago.

[juju151111]

Jordan would score the same this era, or even a little less if he played now.

Zone forces players to shoot more jumpshots, and stats prove this. (if anyone can find that thread where George Gervin said he could score more then 40 points this era, as this is where I provided the stats).

Jordan would have to shoot more jumpshots, especially threes, which he was not very good at for the first part of his career. Thus his scoring would most likely decrease for the first portion of his career.

Due to this, his FG% would most likely decrease as well to around 46-51% each season.

Stick to defending Wade because thats the only time you make sense.

[bruceblitz]

Jordan would score the same this era, or even a little less if he played now.

Zone forces players to shoot more jumpshots, and stats prove this. (if anyone can find that thread where George Gervin said he could score more then 40 points this era, as this is where I provided the stats).

Jordan would have to shoot more jumpshots, especially threes, which he was not very good at for the first part of his career. Thus his scoring would most likely decrease for the first portion of his career.

Due to this, his FG% would most likely decrease as well to around 46-51% each season.

Uh, are you really that dumb? Or do you just not watch the games? Teams run man to man 95% of the time in the NBA today. I can't believe you people. Do you even watch the games or know what to look for?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-C-TvHqzA
Yes, Jordan would struggle against that. lmfao!

I suggest you watch and read what Clyde Drexler said in this video too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aejHEkZpemA

[OldSchoolBBall]

Incidentally, they year Jordan averaged 37+ points a game, the average NBA team gave up 109.9 points a game. The tempo of the game was much faster. In contrast, the average current NBA team has significantly slowed down the tempo of the game to the point where the average team only gives up 99.6 points a game... a little more than 10 fewer points scored per game, per team. My guess is that you're saying defense has deteriorated to such an extent that Jordan could average nearly 8 more points a game more inspite of the fact that the game has slowed down so considerably...

Team scoring and pace has nothing to do with individual scoring. Stars get their opportunities. Period. Chicago was always one of the slowest teams in the league anyhow. That's why Jordan was able to average 32.5 ppg in 1989 on a 97.0 pace factor team and 32.6 ppg in 1993 on a 92.5 pace factor team.

Jordan averaged 30.4 ppg/50% FG in 1996 at age 33 in a league where team averages (ppg/FG%) were roughly the same as they are today. Age 33. But keep trying to act like you have a point.

[andgar923]

If I may......

There are many reasons as to why individual scoring is up, shooting percentages are down and why team's total points scored has decreased throughout the years.

I'ma keep it brief:

!. Players coming into the league at a younger age, which equals = unprepared

2. League change in rules throughout the decade that help perimeter scoring

3. Shot selection... players today fall in love with the 3 to easily. MJ even talked about why he didn't like to take the 3 as much. It becomes addictive

4. No real centers anymore

5. Too much one on one

6. Not enough team play on defense and offense

7. Today's players are worth much more money, so the league is far less physical in order to protect their investments

8. Teams don't stay together, so there's no growth for players or teams

9. Sounds like a cliche, but players due to no fault of their own, see the game more as a business than ever. And YES that has some effect on the court.

10. Not sure if I really have a ten, but what's a list without ten reasons right? Oh yeah..... players are ***** today.

And everything I mentioned above is related and it forms what we call the NBA today.

Most created by the league for legit reasons, but unfortunately many purists don't really like the changes.

That's it for now.

[andgar923]

Team scoring and pace has nothing to do with individual scoring. Stars get their opportunities. Period. Chicago was always one of the slowest teams in the league anyhow. That's why Jordan was able to average 32.5 ppg in 1989 on a 97.0 pace factor team and 32.6 ppg in 1993 on a 92.5 pace factor team.

Jordan averaged 30.4 ppg/50% FG in 1996 at age 33 in a league where team averages (ppg/FG%) were roughly the same as they are today. Age 33. But keep trying to act like you have a point.

I don't understand why some keep saying, MJ was a product of a faster paced era.

Sure he averaged 27 shots one season, but so did Kobe!

We see players today taking 30 shots with ease often. Hell... KObe took 30 in like 35 minutes I believe. And he did so effortlessly, so how related is it to the fast pace?

LIke somebody else mentioned, there was more ball movement, so the notion that MJ had more possessions is misleading. Wade, Bron and Kobe have the same amount of possessions than MJ did.

Also, not to play captain save a Bruce, but he's right.

The vids that he, myself and others make, are made as a RESPONSE to the misinformation and defamation of not just MJ but past eras.

If we seem overzealous with our vids or our presentation, too bad. But one cannot criticize THE FACTS presented.

And I agree, anybody can edit videos to prove a point, but we (for the vast majority of the time) don't do that. We give it to ya'll like pure coke (raw and uncut).

The lies that are spread online must be corrected. YES they MUST be corrected, because if you care about the sport, you won't let it get hijacked by a few morons. They corrupt and influence not just future generations, but they even influence so called modern "sportswriters." They are literally re-writing history to fit their agenda and tens of thousands are believing them.

And I'm not gonna sugar coat a damn thing.

Its mainly (estimate 97% of them for sure) KOBE STANS.

Again if I may..... I differentiate between Kobe "fans" and Kobe "stans" and STANS are the worst type of so called fans there is.

[plowking]

Stick to defending Wade because thats the only time you make sense.

Learn something about basketball.

The OP and yourself are ridiculously dense if you believe Jordan would be scoring 40 points per game this era.

There is hardly any chance. He would be a 30-37ppg scorer in his prime just like he was in his era. His numbers wouldn't change that much apart from slightly worse shooting.