Possible that a Young, Healthy Arvydas Sabonis the GOAT center?

[Psileas]

No he wasn't a dominate score in his 30's, way past his prime with shot knees and achilles, but neither was Wilt nor is Shaq now.

The question is, when he was young and healthy was he a dominate scorer in the Soviet League? I can't find his stats anywhere, but he did lead his team to three straight title, so I imagine he was pretty good.

Even in the 1992 Olympics when he played for Lithuania Sabas avg 24 pts and 13 Rbs per game. That's in 40 minute games. That's unbelievable.

In 1994-1995 while on Real Madrid Sabas averaged 22 pts and 13 rbs. Once again under Euro rules thats very impressive.

Sabonis was never a big-time scorer, even in his prime. Here are his stats:

http://www.basketpedya.com/Acc002Inf...=1754&idioma=1

As you see, he averaged 20/11 in 1995 for Real, not 22/13. Actually, he only once got to 20+ ppg after 1990 and, mind you, this is still early/mid 90's European basketball, when it was possible for high scorers to average 30+ ppg, even at its strongest leagues. Getting 18-22 ppg for a good team was nice, but not something really rare and spectacular, as it would be today.

How do you know how good a defender Sabonis was in 1984? When he was still young and agile...hell Arvydas led the Euroleague in blocks at age 39!!

I've watched Sabonis a lot of times before coming to the NBA, since I'm European myself and from the games I saw, the kind of defense he played consisted mainly of just using his huge frame to cover space inside. At times he succeeded (depending on the competition), but he wasn't the intimidating defender that no-one would dare shoot over. Such a guy was Vrankovic or even Tkatchenko. Sabonis always seemed to care less about defense then them.
Leading the Euroleague in shot blocking is a nice little stat, but after the mid-90's, shot blocking numbers became so poor that they lost their meaning. It really isn't that important, because in Europe in the last decade there's much more to defense than blocked shots.

Yes you can. That's the point of PER..that its per minute efficiency. That's one of the reasons Hollinger designed it.

For the exact fact that it's a per-minute stat comparing players with not comparable minutes of play you can't do this, since it's unfair to compare the efficiency of a 40 mpg superstar to that of a 25 mpg past-prime player. No-one in their right mind will tell you that a player averaging 5 assists in 20 mpg is equal to a player averaging 10 assists in 40 mpg, although PER will tell you he is.

[Sir Charles]

An Early to Mid 80s Sabonis before his injuries was definetly a 5th Greatest Center of All Time. More than one person has claimed this and this happens to be people whom saw him in the 80s (even an Afro American friend of mine said he was better than Jabbar in the early 80s).

Wilt, Jabbar, Shaq, Hakeem and Sabonis are the Best Centers Ever.

At 6 Id put Robinson.

[Psileas]

^^As much as you hate it (and I know you hate it), a list without Russell is incomplete. I'm pretty sure your Afro American friend will agree with this, as well.

[hateraid]

The most versatile offensively, but not the greatest. His shortcomings on D hold him back.

[Lebron23]

An Early to Mid 80s Sabonis before his injuries was definetly a 5th Greatest Center of All Time. More than one person has claimed this and this happens to be people whom saw him in the 80s (even an Afro American friend of mine said he was better than Jabbar in the early 80s).

Wilt, Jabbar, Shaq, Hakeem and Sabonis are the Best Centers Ever.

At 6 Id put Robinson.

David Robinson is the most underrated Center in this message board. The Admiral was a former NBA Defensive Player of the Year, Regular Season MVP, NBA Scoring Champion, One of only 4 players in NBA history to accumulate a Quadruple Double Performance, and During his prime he also scored 71 points againts the Los Angeles Clippers.

By the way a 36 yrs.old Bob Mcadoo dominated the Euroleague in 1987, and he also had a better stats than Aryvdas Sabonis.

Bob Mcadoo Career and Stats in the Euroleague

[quote]In his first year he led Milan to the Italian and European Championship (two times) both, with an average of 26.1 points and 10.2 rebounds. Later he played for Filanto Forl

[Jinxed]

David Robinson is the most underrated Center in this message board. The Admiral was a former NBA Defensive Player of the Year, Regular Season MVP, NBA Scoring Champion, One of only 4 players in NBA history to accumulate a Quadruple Double Performance, and During his prime he also scored 71 points againts the Los Angeles Clippers.

By the way a 36 yrs.old Bob Mcadoo dominated the Euroleague in 1987, and he also had a better stats than Aryvdas Sabonis.

Bob Mcadoo Career and Stats in the Euroleague

And most people here will agree that David Robinson had a better career than Bob Mcadoo, who was snubbed in the Top 50 Greatest Player of all time.

Can you Imagine a Prime David Robinson and Mcadoo playing in the Euroleague?

By the way if a young Sabonis play in the NBA i can see him averaging 20 ppg, and 12 rpg, and he will never averaged 30/15 in the NBA because he was never a dominant scorer when he played in the Euroleague.

To be nitpicky, you haven't listed Mcadoo's Euroleague stats, other than what he did in the final four. You listed his stats in the Italian league, a different and subpar league to the soviet league that Sabonis played in. I can't find Sabonis's euroleague stats anywhere, nor can I find McaDoo's. I won't doubt that Bob Mcadoo's stats were better in the euroleague..I just can't find the stats. Maybe you can...

As for David Robinson, as I mentioned a young Arvydas Sabonis played against Robinson in the 1986 world championships...and this is what happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mwuNWNSgeQ

Sabonis made Robinson his beeatch...the admiral is number 11..and watch Sabas dunk on him multiple times and swat his shots away like he's playing with his sister.

As for how much Sabas would score in his prime in the NBA...Let's keep in mind that when he first came to the NBA in his 30's..with two shot knees, two ruptured achilles tendons..overweight...that he averaged 15 pts and 8 rbs...in 23 minutes!!!! The reason that he played so little was because they were terrified that his legs wouldn't hold up to the long haul, not because he didn't deserve more playing time.Now imagine he was able to play a full 36 minutes like most stars...he would have averaged

22 pts and 12 Rbs...and that's a decade past his prime with shot legs!! And in fact when Sabonis did get the minutes those were about what his stats were.

So to say say that 1985 Sabonis only scores 20 and 12 ...there's no way!! Hell he avg 17/9 per 36 min at the age of 36.

[Jinxed]

Sabonis was never a big-time scorer, even in his prime. Here are his stats:

http://www.basketpedya.com/Acc002Inf...=1754&idioma=1

As you see, he averaged 20/11 in 1995 for Real, not 22/13. Actually, he only once got to 20+ ppg after 1990 and, mind you, this is still early/mid 90's European basketball, when it was possible for high scorers to average 30+ ppg, even at its strongest leagues. Getting 18-22 ppg for a good team was nice, but not something really rare and spectacular, as it would be today.

He avg 20/11 for Real Madrid in the ACB league..I believe he averaged 22/13 in the euroleague...

You seem to know what you are talking about psileas though, you def have more knowledge about old european basketball than I do. thanks for sharing.

You said you watched Sabonis in the european league..but did you ever watch him in the early to mid 80's or are you talking strictly about when you saw him in the 90's..post knee and achilles injuries?

I doubt you got Soviet communist era league games on television..so your knowledge of Sabas defense would have to have been in the 1986 european championship..of which i posted a link to the televised game and hes a force in the middle. Other than that, (while i hope you did) i doubt you ever saw Sabas much of Sabas pre injuries play defense.

[godofgods]

The only thing prime Shaq has over Sabonis is his ability to commit offensive fouls without being called.

Prime Sabonis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every NBA center in history.

[ronnymac]

Prime sabonis> robinson, ewing, brad daugharty and anyother great centers of that era. the only superior centers were shaq because he was more dominante. as was olajuwon.other then that, noone came close. overrall probaly olajuwon, shaq, abdul jabbar, wilt could out do him.


A prime sabonis would tear the current crop of centers into shreds. yao, dwight and co cant even carry sabonis's jockstrap. 7'4 monster who could shoot and pass like a guard whilst having an amazing low post game. not to mention how agile he was in his prime.

[lakers_forever]

In 92, Sabonis was 28 and averaged 24 ppg in the Olympics?

What about Oscar Schmidt from Brazil? He was 34 in 92 and had 24.7 ppg.
In Atlanta 96 , at age 38, he had 27.3 ppg.
At his prime , in Seul 88, he had 42.3 ppg
All time Olympic scorer with 28.8 ppg.
He led Brazil to a 1987 Pan American Games upset over the U.S with 46 points.
The american team had David Robinson, Danny Manning, Rex Chapman and other future NBA players.
He was a 6'8 SG. Could have been a great , great scorer in the NBA.

[lakers_forever]

In 92, Sabonis was 28 and averaged 24 ppg in the Olympics?

What about Oscar Schmidt from Brazil? He was 34 in 92 and had 24.7 ppg.
In Atlanta 96 , at age 38, he had 27.3 ppg.
At his prime , in Seul 88, he had 42.3 ppg
All time Olympic scorer with 28.8 ppg.
He led Brazil to a 1987 Pan American Games upset over the U.S with 46 points.
The american team had David Robinson, Danny Manning, Rex Chapman and other future NBA players.
He was a 6'8 SG. Could have been a great , great scorer in the NBA.

There's no way Sabonis would be better than Wilt, Shaq, Russell , Hakeem or Kareem. No way.
I have a hard time believing he would be any better than guys like Moses , DRob and Ewing. Actually I think he would be close , but not on the level of those guys, specially in their primes.
Moses was the best player in the world for 3 years. Robinson and Ewing were crazy good in their primes.

Sabonis would be a little better than Yao.

[ronnymac]

There's no way Sabonis would be better than Wilt, Shaq, Russell , Hakeem or Kareem. No way.
I have a hard time believing he would be any better than guys like Moses , DRob and Ewing. Actually I think he would be close , but not on the level of those guys, specially in their primes.
Moses was the best player in the world for 3 years. Robinson and Ewing were crazy good in their primes.

Sabonis would be a little better than Yao.

Prime sabonis was alot better then yao.he was alot and i mean alot better passer, had much better handles. had alot more range on his shot. just as skilled scorer in the block.

[Psileas]

He avg 20/11 for Real Madrid in the ACB league..I believe he averaged 22/13 in the euroleague...

You seem to know what you are talking about psileas though, you def have more knowledge about old european basketball than I do. thanks for sharing.

You said you watched Sabonis in the european league..but did you ever watch him in the early to mid 80's or are you talking strictly about when you saw him in the 90's..post knee and achilles injuries?

I doubt you got Soviet communist era league games on television..so your knowledge of Sabas defense would have to have been in the 1986 european championship..of which i posted a link to the televised game and hes a force in the middle. Other than that, (while i hope you did) i doubt you ever saw Sabas much of Sabas pre injuries play defense.

I didn't watch much of Sabonis from his very young days. But I've read opinions from journalists who did and most of them talked about the things you mentioned in the OP: His ability to run the floor, shoot from any range, his high basketball IQ. But I can't recall claims about his defense.
While we know how much Soviets and Americans "liked" each other, I do recall the mention of a game of the USSR N.T against the Virginia University in late '82. Virginia won and Sampson was credited with 13 points, 25 rebounds and 9 blocks. Sabonis had 21 pts, but there was no mention of his other stats.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

If his injuries never happened, Sabonis could have been in the conversation in his prime, but that player never existed because when he had the experience his legs were long gone.

That said, I don't see him becoming THAT great as he lacked the right work ethic to do so.

[lilmarcgasol]

The only thing prime Shaq has over Sabonis is his ability to commit offensive fouls without being called.

Prime Sabonis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every NBA center in history.

Ok Shaq owned Sabonis, even though Sabonis got help from Detlef Schremf and Rasheed Wallace everytime Shaq touched the ball. Sabonis could shoot yeh, but do you remember a man named Rik Smits he could shoot too just as well as Sabonis so what, Shaq owned both lol.