How much better was Larry Bird than Magic Johnson?

[eliteballer]

Doesn't make sense. Boxing out someone your own size is much harder to do then boxing out someone much smaller than you.


Not really; both were extremely efficient (many 50%+ years for both), but Larry scored more.

A PG is generally going to be farther away from the basket on offense and defense than a forward. Harder to grab boards. Also, Magic is out there competing with a SG/SF/PF/C to grab boards. Bird competing with a PG/SG/PF/C. PG-SF trade off. Magic has more players who are likely to grab higher volume of boards.

In their primes, Magic usually shot from 53-56%. Bird usually shot 50-52%

[fos]

Bird was better than Magic at everything INCLUDING passing which is what a point guard does best. Bird, better shooter, better rebounder, better passer, better defender, and tougher. Talk about rebounding, Bird played with McHale and Perrish and still had 10 a game for his career at SF and played PF before McHale got there. Only thing that stopped Bird from being the greatest to play the game was his body. Period.

[eliteballer]

Bird was better than Magic at everything INCLUDING passing which is what a point guard does best. Bird, better shooter, better rebounder, better passer, better defender, and tougher. Talk about rebounding, Bird played with McHale and Perrish and still had 10 a game for his career at SF and played PF before McHale got there. Only thing that stopped Bird from being the greatest to play the game was his body. Period.

The ONLY thing Bird had on Magic was shooting. Magic was equal or better in all other areas.

[eliteballer]

Forgot to mention, Magic was also a better ballhandler.

[RagingBull33]

Forgot to mention, Magic was also a better ballhandler.

That's pretty much it. Bird has the edge everywhere else, aside from maybe versatility.

[eliteballer]

No he doesn't. Magic can play all 5 positions. Magic is a better passer. Better ballhandler. Equal or better defender(led league in steals). Better at slashing. Equal rebounder. More efficient scorer. Magic owning him in head to head title play 3-1 despite being 3 years younger says it all.

[Loki]

Laker fans...

Where were the national publications and national columnists calling Magic the best player ever any time during his career? They never existed; it never happened. Meanwhile, many were calling Bird the GOAT during the '84-'87 stretch.

When many people call one player the GOAT, but no respected pubs/columnists call the other the GOAT, and when only Laker homers perpetuate this myth that prime Magic > prime Bird, you can only draw one conclusion.

[eliteballer]

Considering you didn't follow the NBA during Magic and Bird's primes, suffice to say you have no credibility in mentioning who was saying what

[RagingBull33]

Magic can play all 5 positions. Better ballhandler.

As I said, Magic has the edge here.

Magic is a better passer.

Pretty debatable, I can see it going either way. I'd still give Bird the edge, but can see your point of view.

Equal or better defender(led league in steals).

Allen Iverson would be considered a great defender if steals were that large a measuring stick. Bird wasn't amazing, but was better than average (especially for his lack of athleticism) and a 3 time 2nd All-D.

Better at slashing.

Bird was better at the Post.

Equal rebounder.

Bird played with two other guys recording 10+ RPG and still got his. Magic was battling people 6-8 inches smaller than him.

More efficient scorer.

Wow, Larry often scored 6-9 more PPG with a loss of like 3 percentage points. Big Deal. Bird wins in this category.

Magic owning him in head to head title play 3-1 despite being 3 years younger says it all.

East>West in the 80s. Your argument can also backfire on you; Magic was younger and more athletic, while Bird relied more heavily on skill.

[eliteballer]

Pretty debatable, I can see it going either way. I'd still give Bird the edge, but can see your point of view.

Magic's superior ballhandling capability make him better suited to playmaking. Vision itself might be equal, but Magic's superior ballhandling allows him to do more WITH that vision

Allen Iverson would be considered a great defender if steals were that large a measuring stick. Bird wasn't amazing, but was better than average (especially for his lack of athleticism) and a 3 time 2nd All-D.

Magic was very solid at defending guys his own size...including Bird. He was also great at the passing lanes.

Bird was better at the Post.

Debatable. Magic developed a very solid post game. He was stronger than Bird and harder to control down there.

Bird played with two other guys recording 10+ RPG and still got his. Magic was battling people 6-8 inches smaller than him.

Magic was playing a position where his position on the floor and role on the team put him at a huge disadvantage in getting boards and still regularly got 7to 9 per game

Wow, Larry often scored 6-9 more PPG with a loss of like 3 percentage points. Big Deal. Bird wins in this category.

When Magic was required to score more points he did so on similar efficiency to Bird. 23-24 ppg on 52% shooting.

East>West in the 80s. Your argument can also backfire on you; Magic was younger and more athletic, while Bird relied more heavily on skill.

East was not significantly better. The West usually had just about as many 40and 50+ win teams. Also, even IF Bird relied more on skill, I look at the totality of the players effect on the game. Nash is more skilled than LeBron, but it doesnt make him a better player.

[Sir Charles]

A 1979-1986 Bird was clearly better than Magic

Bird wa 3 years older while reaching his prime Earlier aso also his Decline Earlier. He was 23 straight away incomming to the NBA and fo the 1st 6-7 years was clearly better than Magic: He was the Best Player in the NBA from 1981 to 1986

Then it was Magic`s turn from 1987 to 1991 but Overall Bird was the Better Player and a Had a Superior Prime.

Don`t get me wrong but Kareem was still an All Star Caliber player till 1987 and Magic also had Prime Worthy (One of the Best SF/PFs of All Time) and a superior all around cast over the years than Bird had (except for the 1986 Celtics with versatile sixth-man Walton that could come in as FC and C) in Cooper, McADoo, Thompson, Scott, Green, Rambis etc all in their Prime plus Jabbar and Worthy.

Bird had McHale, DJ, Maxwell (till 1985) and Parish but ofcourse Parish was made pretty much by Bird`s Great Passing.

Bird was the Better Scorer, Shooter, Rebounder, Post Defender and almost as Good a Passer as Magic but from a Different Position. Also the better FT shooter, 3-Point Shooter and Clutch Shooter. Superior in a Half Court Game

Magic was the Better Driver, Ballhandler, 1 on 1 Player Away from the Post, More Creative of a Fast Break, almost as Good Rebounder and was Superior in Running Game.

Anyhow they are both Great and although comparable they played different positions so its kind of hard and who really cares?

What was Great About them is that they where precisely the players that carried your typical Whote/Black Steroptypes and made these their trait of the game:


The Not So Athletic, Not so High Jumping, Not Very Fast...White B-Ball Country Boy Player that Hustles and plays as hard as a Lion...


Bird: but this one also Played like a Magician. A Harlem Globetrotter inside a Freakish White Boy Look that also had a the Cold Blood of an Assasing that fittinly loved to get away with a Trash Talk and a Smile after his constant humilations on Players that where Faster and More Athletic than Him. Could Rebound with out a Jump, Could School Offensively without Great Speed and Quickness.

and..

The Supposevely Athletic, High Leaping Typical Black Player that Puts Himself over the Team

Magic: but this one actually was the Opposite...No So Athletic, Not So fast and Played to Lead and Make Others Better. He Was There to Design, To Create, To Do It All-Around, Was Very Smart, Had Enormous B-Ball IQ and always Put His Team 1st even though he expressed the Witts and Talent of Your typical Creative Player Ground Black Ball Player and Did It to Win!

Bird and Magic contraticted the Stereotypes that where usually seen as "Not Being Able to Effect on the Game" of Both your Typical and Most Common White and Black Players....

So You Had a White Man`s Worst Dream in Magic: A somewhat Chubby Hunchbacked Blackman that was as Smart as a Scientist in the Game and played Small being Big.

And a Black Mans Worst Dream in Bird: An Unathletic Somewhat Slow Whiteboy that Inside was as Talented and Coordinated as Globetrotter

Bird was Saying So What if Im A Bit Unathletic, Somewhat Slow and Akward Looking I STILL GOT MORE GAME, WITTS AND TALENT THAN YOU WILL EVER HAVE!

Magic was Saying So What If I am Flashy Chubby and Hunchbacked Looking Tall PG I STILL CAN OUT THINK AND SEE THE GAME BETTER THAN YOU WILL EVER!

That is why they will always be linked together because of their Value System and Their Pointed Out White/Black Stereotypes that even do where not much appreciated: Dominated the League Always!

[BIZARRO]

Magic was 3 years younger than Bird

Magic could play all 5 positons.

Kareem was NOT at a top 5 all-time level when he played with Magic, he was old.

Magic beat Bird 3-1 in head to head championship play(NCAA, 3 Finals)In fact the last time they met in 87 Magic THROTTLED him.

Larry wasn't a better defender than Magic, he was just guarding guys his own size or or a little smaller most of the time. Magic was at a disadvantage at his position. Hell Magic led the league in steals.

Magic was just as a good a rebounder...except he was grabbing boards from the PG position, hes not going to get as many as a guy playing from the 3.

Bird was a better shooter. He was more of a high volume scorer BUT, Magic shot significantly higher from the field(he was more efficient) he was better at getting to the rack and had a great post game.

No, prime Bird isn't better than prime Magic. Hell, non prime Magic was giving prime Bird everything he could handle and beating him in the Finals.

I'm not convinced Bird was better than Magic, or that Magic was better than Bird. I saw them both a lot back then and they each have a compelling case of course.
If put to it, I think Bird at his very best was better, but that Magic was better more consistently.
So take what you will from that.

I will say that the championship/head to head argument is B.S. though.
If you put Magic's powerful Michigan State team with Bird and Magic on Indiana State; Michigan State with Bird hammers them.

In addition, I was a Celtics fan back then and always thought the Lakers had a clearly superior supporting cast than Larry had with the Celts.

If you put Bird, Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Cooper, etc. against Magic, Mchale, Parish, Johnson, Ainge, etc. the championships would be 5-3 the other way or at least that IMO.

It scares me to think about how good a team with a core of Bird, Kareem, and James Worthy would be; especially with an elite big defender like Michael Cooper.

In conclusion and all things aside, IMO Bird and Magic are like ying and yang and will always be that way. I think of them as equals with each other's comparative strengths being cancelled out by the other's.

Which is why they were, and still are, so compelling as rivals, and still so compelling to debate.

[D.J.]

I honestly think Bird was better, but the difference is very marginal. They were almost equal overall, but I always preferred Bird growing up. Prior to '87, these two were the best players in the league at 1A and 1B.

[Psileas]

Generally, from 1980 to 1986, Bird was considered better than Magic, but at a bigger degree than their real margin. It wasn't clear-cut imo, year in and year out.

1980-Bird was better in the regular season, Magic in the playoffs.
1981-Bird was better (Magic missed 45 games due to injury).
1982-Magic was better.
1983-Bird might be slightly better in the r.s, Magic was better in the playoffs.
1984-Bird was better
1985-Bird was better, Magic had slightly better playoffs
1986-Bird was better

In 1987-92, the tables turned, although Bird might be better in the 1988 regular season:

1987: Magic was better
1988: Bird was better in the r.s, Magic in the playoffs.
1989: Magic was better (Bird missed virtually the whole season)
1990: Magic was better
1991: Magic was better

The season when both were closer to their primes must be 1987, closely followed by 1986 or 1988. BTW, 1987 and 1988 were the 2 seasons when the trio of Bird, Magic and Jordan were altogether the closest to their prime.

[D.J.]

Generally, from 1980 to 1986, Bird was considered better than Magic, but at a bigger degree than their real margin. It wasn't clear-cut imo, year in and year out.

1980-Bird was better in the regular season, Magic in the playoffs.
1981-Bird was better (Magic missed 45 games due to injury).
1982-Magic was better.
1983-Bird might be slightly better in the r.s, Magic was better in the playoffs.
1984-Bird was better
1985-Bird was better, Magic had slightly better playoffs
1986-Bird was better

In 1987-92, the tables turned, although Bird might be better in the 1988 regular season:

1987: Magic was better
1988: Bird was better in the r.s, Magic in the playoffs.
1989: Magic was better (Bird missed virtually the whole season)
1990: Magic was better
1991: Magic was better

The season when both were closer to their primes must be 1987, closely followed by 1986 or 1988. BTW, 1987 and 1988 were the 2 seasons when the trio of Bird, Magic and Jordan were altogether the closest to their prime.

The tables turned for good in late '87-early '88 when Bird's back started to go. He only played in six games in the 1988-89 season and the Celtics barely played .500 ball. In terms of their peaks, they were very close, but I think Bird slightly edges Magic out.