Who is the best defensive shooting guard of all time?

[Glove_20]

Probably the closest thing to it, yeah (and Pippen would be the closest thing to it from the SF spot). Jordan was still a better team/help defender, whereas Payton was his equal and possibly superior at ball pressure and doubling the post from the strong side. Payton, during his defensive prime ('96-'00 imo) also exerted a bit more energy than every version of Jordan save for '88-'91 MJ, because he didn't have to do as much offensively.

Jordan was great at team defense, and possibly just a little better than Payton, however Payton also was an excellent team defender and was the biggest reason Karl's trapping schemes were able to have any success. And because he guarded the PG he could literally cause trouble for the whole team's offense.

Payton's defensive peak was more 95-98. And the difference in energy spent on defense isn't too great either. During the last 4 years of Payton's defensive prime (99-02) Payton played 40+ minutes where Jordan played 40+ minutes only twice. Also Payton's career high in minutes is nearly 42, Jordan has never played even 40.5 mpg. And Payton not only has scoring duties, but passing/play making duties and has to bring the ball up every time for his team. This takes quite a bit of energy as well. Some years Jordan for sure has Payton on offensive energy expenditure, however the difference throughout their defensive primes isn't too great.

[Loki]

Glove20, Jordan was, by far, the primary weapon on his team. He saw more defensive pressure than Payton by a good margin in any season with Chicago. Kemp was Payton's relative equal/superior offensively until he left, and then iirc Baker came and was at ~20 ppg for a while. Not sure who GP played with after Baker fell off.

I also never said that Payton wasn't a great team/help defender, because he was. But imo Jordan is the best ever in that respect. He'd sniff out plays from anywhere on the court, help on penetrations and post-ups, and just generally be disruptive. Much more of a shotblocking threat and an equal or greater ball thief, too.

[Glove_20]

Glove20, Jordan was, by far, the primary weapon on his team. He saw more defensive pressure than Payton by a good margin in any season with Chicago. Kemp was Payton's relative equal/superior offensively until he left, and then iirc Baker came and was at ~20 ppg for a while. Not sure who GP played with after Baker fell off.


I also never said that Payton wasn't a great team/help defender, because he was. But imo Jordan is the best ever in that respect. He'd sniff out plays from anywhere on the court, help on penetrations and post-ups, and just generally be disruptive. Much more of a shotblocking threat and an equal or greater ball thief, too.

He really played with no one. Those 40+mpg seasons came when he was even more clear cut best offensive player than Jordan was most of his career. Yet he was still able to make All-D 1st teams playing minutes more than Jordan ever had, and clearly being the best offensive player on the team. And Kemp really never was superior than Payton on offense, during their time together Payton routinely lead the team in points and assists and minutes. When you lead the team in those 3 categories, it's not too hard to guess who was better on offense or who spent more energy on offense.


Your team defense and individual defense actually looks better when you have greater defensive teammates around you. I hope you keep that in mind Loki. That's probably the final reason I would place Payton over Jordan. Both never had great shot blockers behind them, however Jordan had a very effective team defender in Scottie Pippen. Payton never played with anyone even close to that caliber. Having better defensive teammates around you actually makes your defense look better.

[RonySeikalyFTW]

. Some years Jordan for sure has Payton on offensive energy expenditure, however the difference throughout their defensive primes isn't too great.

C'mon, don't compare Payton's offensive energy expenditure to Jordan's. Just look at FTAs. Every time you're hacked while going up for a jumper or driving to the rim takes a lot out of you. Then account for the energy it takes to run miles of circles through picks to receive the ball off a screen (Rip Hamilton literally runs miles every game in Detroit's half-court sets alone).

[Loki]

Your team defense and individual defense actually looks better when you have greater defensive teammates around you. I hope you keep that in mind Loki. That's probably the final reason I would place Payton over Jordan. Both never had great shot blockers behind them, however Jordan had a very effective team defender in Scottie Pippen. Payton never played with anyone even close to that caliber. Having better defensive teammates around you actually makes your defense look better.

Great defensive teammates definitely help, but Jordan won DPOY when Pippen was a benchwarmer, so it's not like we didn't have any indication of his defensive greatness. Even in '89 and '90 Jordan was killing it defensively and Pip wasn't really "Pippen" yet as we know him defensively (especially '89).

[Glove_20]

Great defensive teammates definitely help, but Jordan won DPOY when Pippen was a benchwarmer, so it's not like we didn't have any indication of his defensive greatness. Even in '89 and '90 Jordan was killing it defensively and Pip wasn't really "Pippen" yet as we know him defensively (especially '89).

I'm just saying having great teammates help Jordan's defensive appearance. I know he still would be a great defender regardless of Pippen. Though it does really help to have both Rodman/Pippen in the twilight of your defensive prime.

And there is no doubting that Pippen by 90 was a pretty defensive minded player. He didn't make the All-D teams but it was clear by his play that he concentrated on defense.



But it's defiantly arguable and could go either way.

[plowking]

Jordan was the best defensive SG, though in my opinion Payton is the greatest guard defender ever.

[Lebron23]

Michael Jordan or Sidney Moncrief.

[west]

i'm sorry,but Kobe Bryant isn't fit into that category,we are talking about "Who is the best defensive shooting guard of all time?" he is probably not even the best defensive SG in his generation

[G-train]

Jordan basically trained Pippen how to be a defensive predator. I read that in one of his bio's.

Pippen probably surpassed Jordan in some ways defensively, due to his length and quickness and 6'7ish height and extender arms.

[YAWN]

i'm sorry,but Kobe Bryant isn't fit into that category,we are talking about "Who is the best defensive shooting guard of all time?" he is probably not even the best defensive SG in his generation

who would you give that honor to?

[Nash-tastic]

I hate Bruce Bowen, my vote to Jordan & Dumars

[Figlo]

I'd go with Jordan since he is the only one i really know alot about. But from what i heard Moncrief should be #1.

[dawsey6]

As great of a defender as MJ was, would he be able to guard himself if he was cloned?

*head explodes*

Given Jordan studied certain opponent players' styles and habits extensively, and that he would know all of his own tricks, yes, he would be able to hold himself off (maybe not shut himself down).

Out of SG's Jordan does get my nod. If this was all guards in general I would give it to Payton.

[Revelation]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Joe Dumars
3. Sidney Moncrief
4. Michael Cooper
---
Don't belong on list:
Jerry West
Kobe Bryant