Clash of the titans: Jordan or Shaq???

[danumber88]

Top 10 Players Efficiency Ratings

1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Shaquille O'Neal 27.14
3. David Robinson 26.18
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
5. Bob Pettit* 25.37
6. LeBron James 25.17
7. Tim Duncan 25.10
8. Neil Johnston* 24.67
9. Charles Barkley* 24.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58


Shaquille O'Neal Players Efficiency Rating


1993-94 NBA 28.5 (2)
1994-95 NBA 28.6 (2)
1997-98 NBA 28.8 (1)
1998-99 NBA 30.6 (1)
1999-00 NBA 30.6 (1)
2000-01 NBA 30.2 (1)
2001-02 NBA 29.7 (1)
2002-03 NBA 29.5 (2)
2003-04 NBA 24.4 (4)
2004-05 NBA 27.0 (3)


Michael Jordan Players Efficiency Rating

1984-85 NBA 25.8 (2)
1986-87 NBA 29.8 (1)
1987-88 NBA 31.7 (1)
1988-89 NBA 31.1 (1)
1989-90 NBA 31.2 (1)
1990-91 NBA 31.6 (1)
1991-92 NBA 27.7 (1)
1992-93 NBA 29.7 (1)
1995-96 NBA 29.4 (2)
1996-97 NBA 27.8 (2)
1997-98 NBA 25.2 (4)

repped, explains why Michael is the GOAT. The efficiency list is pretty close tho.

[plowking]

Am I the only that realized the threadstarter said John Starks shut Jordan down? Really? How old is high potential? For anyone to make a comment like that makes me believe they weren't even alive back then.

Holding Jordan to 40 points on some nights was shutting him down apparently.

[EricForman]

I know everyone thinks the GOAT is Jordan, but look at the cold hard facts about Shaq: When he was in his prime, absolutely no one could stop him. Jordan had players such as John Starks who could shut him down.

John Starks shut down Jordan?

Shaq was playing through constant double and triple teams, while MJ was mostly guarded 1v1?

It's arguable that Shaq faced more "doubles" than Jordan did. But to say Jordan was mostly guarded 1 on 1 is just silly. Watch the 80s.

[TMac&Luther]

Okay I looked at the "cold hard facts" and Jordan is > than Shaq......this thread and the thread starter fails miserably.

[High Potential]

Shaq fought through double and triple teams every time he touched the ball. Jordan didn't. I'll take Shaq.

[TMac&Luther]

Shaq fought through double and triple teams every time he touched the ball. Jordan didn't. I'll take Shaq.

Hmm, So I guess you would also take Haheem over Jordan too. Every dominant big man that has ever played this game has had to fight double and sometimes triple teams.....it's nothing new and it sure as hell didn't start with Shaq...that's just how the center position and playing in the post is.

Shaq over Jordan can't even remotely be entertained....

First of all, Jordan played in arguably the toughest era ever, his era made Shaq's era look like a cream puff league. (I mean how many rings did Shaq win in Jordan's era?

Second, Jordan didn't get to play with 3 vastly talented wing men, the equivelent of Shaq playing with Penny, Kobe, (who was a big reason why Shaq was able to win three rings in LA), and Wade (who IS THE DAMN REASON why Shaq even won a ring without Kobe) is if Jordan was able to play with 3 different dominant big men thoughout his career.....guess what pal, Jordan didn't play with any damn dominant big men and it didn't freaking matter, because he was that great.....and that much BETTER than Shaq.

[kumquat]

Nobody could stop Jordan in his prime either. Just like shaq he was double, even triple teamed....as a guard no less, he was beaten on (jordan rules) and still killed cats. Seriously watch some games.

[picc84]

Give me MJilla every day of the week and twice on sunday.

[BIZARRO]

I know everyone thinks the GOAT is Jordan, but look at the cold hard facts about Shaq: When he was in his prime, absolutely no one could stop him. Jordan had players such as John Starks who could shut him down.
Shaq was a bigger athletic freak than Jordan ever was, infact I don't think we've ever seen an athlete like Shaq in the league, 7'1" 300 pounds, a monster vert and some of the quickest feet in the league. Even now in the twilight of his career he is still the best passing big man in the league, and commands a double team. How is Jordan better than Shaq when Shaq couldn't be stopped but Jordan could?

Ridiculous.

[EricForman]

high potential, you suck as a poster.

[Loki]

Jordan had players such as John Starks who could shut him down.

Do those ratings take into account the fact that Shaq was playing through constant double and triple teams, while MJ was mostly guarded 1v1?

What kind of nonsense is this?

While Jordan wasn't doubled as much as Shaq, he's pretty easily the second most doubled/trapped player of the last 25 years. Not sure where people get this idea that Jordan was guarded 1-on-1 his whole career. I guess opposing teams were just stupid, guarding the most dangerous offensive player in the league one-on-one all the time. Do yourself a favor and watch some games.

On topic, I'd take Jordan. Similar production, better intangibles, more mentally dominant, and the far superior late game player for obvious reasons. He was also more able than Shaq to have a big game on command when needed.

Virtually any number you look at has Jordan at #1 for a reason. PER was already posted. You can also look at Win Shares, where Jordan holds 4 of the top 5 seasons ever, 6 of the top 10 seasons ever, and 7 of the top 16 seasons ever. Shaq's best season is at #6. Win Shares are basically a measure of how responsible you are for your team's wins:


1. Michael Jordan 20.35 1987-88
2. Michael Jordan 20.27 1995-96
3. Michael Jordan 19.84 1990-91
4. Michael Jordan 19.08 1988-89
5. David Robinson 18.94 1993-94
6. Shaquille O'Neal 18.70 1999-00
7. Michael Jordan 18.68 1989-90
8. David Robinson 18.56 1995-96
9. Bob McAdoo* 18.45 1974-75
10. Michael Jordan 18.27 1996-97
11. Kevin Garnett 18.10 2003-04
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.82 1973-74
13. David Robinson 17.78 1994-95
14. Tim Duncan 17.68 2001-02
15. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.37 1976-77
16. Michael Jordan 17.31 1991-92

[gb8]

What kind of nonsense is this?

While Jordan wasn't doubled as much as Shaq, he's pretty easily the second most doubled/trapped player of the last 25 years. Not sure where people get this idea that Jordan was guarded 1-on-1 his whole career. I guess opposing teams were just stupid, guarding the most dangerous offensive player in the league one-on-one all the time. Do yourself a favor and watch some games.

On topic, I'd take Jordan. Similar production, better intangibles, more mentally dominant, and the far superior late game player for obvious reasons. He was also more able than Shaq to have a big game on command when needed.

Virtually any number you look at has Jordan at #1 for a reason. PER was already posted. You can also look at Win Shares, where Jordan holds 4 of the top 5 seasons ever, 6 of the top 10 seasons ever, and 7 of the top 16 seasons ever. Shaq's best season is at #6. Win Shares are basically a measure of how responsible you are for your team's wins:


1. Michael Jordan 20.35 1987-88
2. Michael Jordan 20.27 1995-96
3. Michael Jordan 19.84 1990-91
4. Michael Jordan 19.08 1988-89
5. David Robinson 18.94 1993-94
6. Shaquille O'Neal 18.70 1999-00
7. Michael Jordan 18.68 1989-90
8. David Robinson 18.56 1995-96
9. Bob McAdoo* 18.45 1974-75
10. Michael Jordan 18.27 1996-97
11. Kevin Garnett 18.10 2003-04
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.82 1973-74
13. David Robinson 17.78 1994-95
14. Tim Duncan 17.68 2001-02
15. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.37 1976-77
16. Michael Jordan 17.31 1991-92

Really having watched you would take another player over the 2000 shaq?

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Jordan.

Shaq is a GOAT C no doubt, but his reign didnt last long enough, his prime ended too quick. When he was in said prime, nobody could stop him, his 300+ pounds of pure post power annihilated all. He is also an amazing defender.

But Jordan lasted longer and was just....Jordan

shaq made it to the finals 5 times fyi. perhaps if he didnt move from orlando to la la land, it could have been 6 or 7 times. (just because lakers were sorta kinda going thru the rebuilding stage when they brought shaq in.)

[Sir Charles]

Efficiency EFF where Efficiency of Your Natural Skills & FUNDEMANTALS Are Taking Into Account Over Those That Go Along With Athletic Qualities (Size, Strength, Speed, Stamina, Potence, Agility etc) That Determine Your Per Minute Efficiency Ratings

http://www.databasebasketball.com/le...?stat=eff&lg=n

Career EFF Leaders

Player EFF Seasons

[COLOR="Orange"]1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]2 Bill Russell 31.71 13 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="SlateGray"]4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]6 Larry Bird 29.77 13 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16 [/COLOR]

[COLOR="SandyBrown"]11 Jerry Lucas 28.13 11 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]12 Shaquille O'neal 27.59 16 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]13 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.17 18 [/COLOR] (would have been higher If he did not play so many years)
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]14 Kevin Garnett 27.13 13 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]15 Jerry West 27.10 14 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="DimGray"]16 David Robinson 26.98 14 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]17 Karl Malone 26.94 19 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]18 Tim Duncan 26.59 11 [/COLOR]
[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]19 LeBron James 26.46 5[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Teal"]20 Walt Bellamy 26.29 14 [/COLOR]

21 Dave Cowens 26.23 11
22 Maurice Stokes 25.75 3
23 Bob Lanier 25.29 14
24 Bob McAdoo 24.47 14
25 Elton Brand 24.37 9
26 Dirk Nowitzki 24.25 10
27 Moses Malone 24.14 19
28 Willis Reed 24.06 10
29 Elvin Hayes 24.04 16
30 Rick Barry 23.98 10
31 Nate Thurmond 23.73 14
32 Chris Webber 23.72 15
33 Wes Unseld 23.70 13
34 Shawn Marion 23.52 9
35 Chris Paul 23.51 3
36 Billy Cunningham 23.51 9
37 Patrick Ewing 23.41 17
38 Julius Erving 23.35 11
39 Neil Johnston 23.23 8
40 Brad Daugherty 23.10 8
41 Artis Gilmore 22.99 12
42 Dwyane Wade 22.95 5
43 Amare Stoudemire 22.85 6
44 Walt Frazier 22.74 13
45 Gus Johnson 22.63 9
46 Adrian Dantley 22.60 15
47 Kobe Bryant 22.42 12
48 Clyde Drexler 22.42 15
49 Dwight Howard 22.26 4
50 Larry Nance 22.14 13
51 Bill Walton 22.13 10
52 Dolph Schayes 22.10 15
53 George Gervin 22.07 10
54 Dan Issel 21.91 9
55 Pau Gasol 21.91 7
56 Yao Ming 21.90 6
57 Jeff Ruland 21.71 8
58 George Mikan 21.58 7
59 Allen Iverson 21.56 12
60 Kevin Johnson 21.56 12
61 Clark Kellogg 21.55 5
62 Bailey Howell 21.53 12
63 Carlos Boozer 21.49 6
64 Paul Pierce 21.45 10
65 Marques Johnson 21.44 11
66 Chris Bosh 21.41 5
67 Dominique Wilkins 21.26 15
68 Paul Arizin 21.26 10
69 Connie Hawkins 21.25 7
70 Vince Carter 21.16 10
71 Tracy McGrady 21.10 11
72 Grant Hill 21.09 13
73 Pete Maravich 20.98 10
74 Jason Kidd 20.95 14
75 Spencer Haywood 20.84 12
76 Jack Sikma 20.83 14
77 John Stockton 20.80 19
78 John Havlicek 20.68 16
79 Kevin McHale 20.44 13
80 Alex English 20.40 15
81 George McGinnis 20.26 7
82 Isiah Thomas 20.22 13
83 Elmore Smith 20.20 8
84 Carmelo Anthony 20.16 5
85 Dave Debusschere 20.14 12
86 Bob Dandridge 20.03 13
87 Lamar Odom 19.94 9
88 Zelmo Beaty 19.92 8
89 Gilbert Arenas 19.91 7
90 Rudy Tomjanovich 19.77 11
91 Alonzo Mourning 19.77 15
92 Sidney Wicks 19.76 10
93 Bill Bridges 19.73 13
94 Happy Hairston 19.65 11
95 Dan Roundfield 19.60 11
96 Bernard King 19.60 14
97 Alex Groza 19.53 2
98 Scottie Pippen 19.50 17
99 Dave Bing 19.33 12
100 Nate Archibald 19.24 13

[RidonKs]

What separates the two players in my mind:

Shaq's domination of the glass
Jordan's domination in the clutch (with the advantage compounded by Shaq's virtual liability status)
MJ's durability advantage

Everything else is fairly even, and it is easier to build a team around Shaq. At least in regards to C vs SG. But MJ's two advantages seals the deal for me. If only barely.