Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?

[guy]

he's definitely a top 5 center.

probably top 10 player all-time. in my mind, he's remarkable lack of professionalism knocks him down the all-time list.

I never understood that. We usually judge how great a player is by his skillset, impact, and achievements right? His lack of professionalism or attitude usually has an effect on those things, so he probably could've been better and achieved more if it wasn't for that. So when people penalize him for that, you're basically penalizing him TWICE in a way.

[DCL]

in terms of overall game impact, shaq is top 5.

[plowking]

I never understood that. We usually judge how great a player is by his skillset, impact, and achievements right? His lack of professionalism or attitude usually has an effect on those things, so he probably could've been better and achieved more if it wasn't for that. So when people penalize him for that, you're basically penalizing him TWICE in a way.

Agreed. Do we knock on Jordan because he punched his teammate in the face? Absolutely not, shouldn't happen to Shaq either.

[guy]

Agreed. Do we knock on Jordan because he punched his teammate in the face? Absolutely not, shouldn't happen to Shaq either.

Another thing, guys like Jordan and Kareem were considered a**holes by a lot of people when they played, but it wasn't that big of a deal cause it wasn't publicized in the media as much back then. If Shaq played 10-20 years before, we wouldn't even be talking about this stuff, so is it really fair to hold that against him?

And another thing is we never ever give credit to a player's greatness for having great professionalism/work ethic, so why should we discredit anyone for their lack of it? David Robinson is someone that had great work ethic, and is considered to have great professionalism. He never had problems with anyone and he was a very loyal player. But when we talk about his greatness we don't talk about that stuff. We talk about how he was a dominant scorer, rebounder, and defender, his 1 MVP, and his 2 championships, and we basically leave it at that.

[clayton]

He can't enter top 5 because:

1) Old school basketball fans are still alive. They hate modern basketball and love short shorts. True dat...

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I never understood that. We usually judge how great a player is by his skillset, impact, and achievements right? His lack of professionalism or attitude usually has an effect on those things, so he probably could've been better and achieved more if it wasn't for that. So when people penalize him for that, you're basically penalizing him TWICE in a way.

not really. I dont think people really take into account being out-of-shape when they assess his "dominance". Indeed, look at the OP for example. For me, I take his on-court greatness/dominance/impact and then subtract for certain things.

Michael Jordan would have NEVER said, "I hurt my toe and company time, so I will fix it on company time". And even if he would say that, I dont believe MJ would actually DO that. Shaq actually did that.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Agreed. Do we knock on Jordan because he punched his teammate in the face? Absolutely not, shouldn't happen to Shaq either.

see prior post.
Has less to do with punching a teammate as opposed to showing up out of shape, "fixing toe on company time", etc etc

[AllenIverson3]

Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Tim Duncan

[Lebron23]

He can't enter top 5 because:

1) Old school basketball fans are still alive. They hate modern basketball and love short shorts. True dat...

Best posts so far in this thread, and I think Shaq is definitely a top 8 best players of all time.

One of the most dominating Finals performance in the history of the NBA.

[boozehound]

Tell that to players who don't have one.

Yeah? Im sure darko or scalabrine (both nba champions) are real proud of their rings.

[guy]

not really. I dont think people really take into account being out-of-shape when they assess his "dominance". Indeed, look at the OP for example. For me, I take his on-court greatness/dominance/impact and then subtract for certain things.

In a way they do, cause he would've been even more dominant if he wasn't out-of-shape and alot of people like myself would probably rank him even higher as a result. If he stayed in better shape the dominance he had with the Lakers he might've had with the Heat, and he might still be a 20-10 player today. Wouldn't you rank him higher as a result and consider him even more dominant as a result. Shaq penalizes his own greatness by being out of shape by not being able to achieve as much as a result.

Michael Jordan would have NEVER said, "I hurt my toe and company time, so I will fix it on company time". And even if he would say that, I dont believe MJ would actually DO that. Shaq actually did that.

Even if he said that, what does that have to do with what he does on the court? And maybe if he didn't DO that, the Lakers would've had a greater record, had HCA against the Spurs, and won the title for the 4th straight year or at least gone further in the playoffs. My point is we're already penalizing him for less success which could've been a result of his work ethic, so why should we penalize him even more?

[PMshooter]

In his prime, Shaq was so insanely dominant that only Patrick Ewing and Hakeem came close to slowing him down. And they only came close. His last couple of seasons in Orlando and his first two in LA were RIDICULOUS! He's definitely in my top 10.

I've got a couple of gripes in that even when he saw that he was slowing down, he didn't develop an long hook or a jumper or something else to make up for his lost speed and explosiveness, and that he was a crappy free throw shooter his entire career. How dominant are you if you can force the other coach to sit you at crunch time?

Otherwise, the guy is clearly in the top 5 centers of all time (I've got him 4th) and in the top ten players of all time.

Though I do think the guy is a raging *******, and I'm glad that's been exposed in the last couple of years. And I did take a perverse joy in seeing him fail to advance in the playoffs last year.

[Psileas]

He has a case. He's generally considered top 4-9 among most fans. Too dominant 2000-02 Finals. I usually put him somewhere in #7, a position that would be higher if
1) he wasn't getting injured as much as he did (for a season, I'll take a guy who plays 80 games and is 90% as good as Shaq instead of a 55-60 game Shaq)
2) he had the defensive impact of a guy like Hakeem
3) he won his titles against stronger individual competition.

I don't understand how people put Wilt in their top 5. There is a double standard it seems for Wilt. When talking about greatness and where a player ranks, people always say he needs to be dominant; which is what Wilt was but also be a winner and have many championships, etc; which is something Wilt doesn't have.

I don't understand how anyone could leave him out of the top-5. Even if he had won 0 titles, he'd still rank among the greatest, thanks to his unsurpassed dominance on the game. After all, people were starting making GOAT claims for Jordan even after his first title (even more often after his second). Shaq was called the GOAT center by some after the 2000 Finals. Both by then had won less than Wilt did. So, if players who had played only for 7-8 years and hadn't matched Wilt's winning either had a claim, then Wilt does for sure.

When Wilt spent his prime, no-one except Boston was winning. So, if Wilt was branded a loser, because of not managing to win championships so should West, Baylor, Oscar, Willis Reed before '70, practically anyone not playing for Boston.

BTW, Wilt was the best player in both teams he won the championship. In 1967, it was a no-brainer. In 1972, you may argue either him or West for the regular season, but West had the worst playoffs of hs career, while Wilt was the Finals' MVP.

[Godfather]

I want to know people's opinion on this because a lot of people overlook Shaq and simply think he is a good basketball player due to his size. I mean the guy has:

4 championships
Named ROY (Rookie of Year) (1993)
Named All-NBA First Rookie Team (1993)
Named MVP (Most Valuable Player) NBA Regular Season (2000)
Named All-NBA First Team (1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006)
Named All-NBA Second Team (1995, 1999)
Named All-NBA Third Team (1994, 1996, 1997)
Named MVP (Most Valuable Player) NBA Finals (2000, 2001, 2002)
Named All-NBA Second Defensive Team (2000, 2001, 2003)
Named IBM Award (2000, 2001)
Named NBA Top Scorer (1995, 2000)
Named NBA Best Field Goal Percentage (1994, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006)
2 times MVP NBA All-Star (2000, 2004)
Selected 14 times for the NBA All-Star game
3 of the greatest finals performances ever
25.2ppg, 11.5rpg, 2.7apg, 2.5bpg and 58% fg in the regular season.

Not to mention in his championship runs he proved he was one of the greatest clutch performers of all time.

[Godfather]

he's definitely a top 5 center.

probably top 10 player all-time. in my mind, he's remarkable lack of professionalism knocks him down the all-time list.

Give an example strong enough that should knock a man down this list. Dis raps against Kobe do not count.