Phil Jackson: Rodman is the greatest athlete I've ever coached

[Kebab Stall]

Rodman is far and away one of my favourite players. But to say that he could have been as good as someone like Michael Jordan on offense is crazy. Rodman often looked lost on offense, even moreso when he actually had the ball, he usually just set screens and then went after the offensive board, that was basically his job and he done extremely well.

Rodman's job was to rebound and play defense. When he played for Detroit, San Antonio and Chicago (let's not count those years in LA and Dallas) there were plenty of guys who could do the job offensively which resulted in stunting Rodman's offensive game. However, he decided to work hard at every other area of his game, defense, rebounding, hustle et cetera.

[PsychoWorm]

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

Way to generalise and call the entire ISH community f-ing idiots. Yes Malthius, like you are the one person on this entire board who is not moron

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

I'm a massive Rodman fan, but i do not agree. Jordan was the most efficient offensive player of all time IMO. Rodman was quick off the floor, and had an excellent 2nd (and 3rd and 4th etc.) jump ability. He was built to rebound, and his body was the prototype for a rebounding forward. He averaged 25 points in college and he says in his biography that in his first 2 years in the league he was focused on scoring, because he thought that was how you got it done it the NBA. He averaged 6.5 and 11.6 ppg respectively those 2 years, the 11.6 being his career high. Not exactly GOAT scoring potential numbers. Regardless of how much of an athletic freak he was, he still looked awkward as hell when he had the ball in his hands. He was too short to be a dominant post scorer and too powerful to be a dominant open-floor player.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

I agree, that's why he is the GOAT rebounder. He was quick as hell, had a great instinct for the ball and was fearless. However, when he did pull down those boards, he was generally giving it up to the guys who could score better, not powering to the rack and dunking on everyone like a Shawn Kemp.

Mathius

F@ck that's annoying, and you wonder why people dislike you.

[Heretik32]

Rodman's job was to rebound and play defense. When he played for Detroit, San Antonio and Chicago (let's not count those years in LA and Dallas) there were plenty of guys who could do the job offensively which resulted in stunting Rodman's offensive game. However, he decided to work hard at every other area of his game, defense, rebounding, hustle et cetera.

Exactly. And what made him maybe the most valuable role player of all time was his willingness to accept his role. The guy just didn't care about touches on offense.

[gotbacon23]

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if you take individual seasons since 77-78, rodman has 4 of the top 5 rebounding years. i just picked that season since it was 30 years ago and a year after the ABA merger. i didn't compare him to people in the 40s-early-mid 70s as players like chamberlain, russell, nate thurmond, jerry lucas, and bob petitt each had MULTIPLE seasons of averaging more than 20 rebounds a game. statistically the eras aren't comparable- can you imagine someone averaging 20 a game now.

it just makes it that more impressive for rodman- check this out

league leaders rebounding/runner up
1991-92 dennis rodman 18.7, kevin willis 15.5 (+3.2 for rodman)
1992-93 rodman 18.3, shaq 13.9 (+4.4)
1993-94 rodman 17.3, shaq 13.2 (+4.1)
1994-95 rodman 16.8, mutombo 12.5 (+4.3)
1995-96 rodman 14.9, d.robinson 12.2 (+2.7)
1996-97 rodman 16.1, mutombo 11.6 (+4.5)
1997-98 rodman 15.0, jayson williams 13.6 (+1.4)
1998-99 webber 13.0, barkley 12.3 (+0.7)
1999-00 mutombo 14.1, shaq 13.6 (+0.5)
2000-01 mutombo 13.5, b. wallace 13.2 (+0.3)
2001-02 b. wallace 13.0, duncan 12.7 (+0.3)
2002-03 b. wallace 15.4, garnett 13.4 (+2.0)
2003-04 garnett 13.9, duncan 12.4 (+1.5)
2004-05 garnett 13.5, wallace 12.2 (+1.3)
2005-06 garnett 12.7, d. howard 12.5 (+0.2)
2006-07 garnett 12.8, chandler 12.4 (+0.4)
2007-08 howard 14.2, camby 13.1 (+1.2)

so- rodman's LOWEST rpg for that stretch was 14.9- only 1 player has surpassed that for a season since then (ben wallace- 15.4) and only 1 even reached that total during that strench (15.5 for willis). 5 of the 7 times rodman led the nba in rebounding, he out-rebounded the runner up by more than 3 rebounds per game- only once since then has anyone even outrebounded the runner up by 2 rebounds per game (also wallace)! thats pretty significant. rodman may be the most dominant rebounder ever.

i'm not saying that he is more athletic then mj and the likes- but its just a tribute the how athletic he was that jackson would say that. dude was a freak (in many ways)

[Mathius]

I'm so proud of each and every one of you morons for living up to my expectations and debating Rodman's physical gifts when the point I was making is this:

Rodman was the most gifted rebounder and defender of his era for one simple reason. He worked harder at it than anyone else and put more mental focus into it than anyone else.

If he had devoted that kind of work ethic and mental focus into offense, he'd have given MJ a run for his money. But Rodman didn't give a damn about offense.

How funny is that moron who said that Rodman wasn't coordinated.

Right. That's why he had such great body control on defense to guard anyone from Kevin Johnson on the weak side to Shaquille O'Neal on the strong side.

It's sad what this new generation of basketball fans find relevant. Basketball IQ's are falling into the toilet at an alarming rate. You don't see someone throw down a 360 or knock down a 3 pointer, and you assume they just can't do it, EVER.

Nevermind the fact that Rodman didn't WANT to play offense.

Mathius

[iamgine]

I actually agree with Mathius to a certain degree. Physically Lebron, Vince Carter and Rodman, those athletic freaks could have been better than Jordan. Jordan's athleticism wasn't so out of this world that no one can catch him. There were a lot of people more gifted physically.

Too bad they didn't have the other necessary tools, that is the mental and/or mind to make it happen.

[Kebab Stall]

I'm so proud of each and every one of you morons for living up to my expectations and debating Rodman's physical gifts when the point I was making is this:

Rodman was the most gifted rebounder and defender of his era for one simple reason. He worked harder at it than anyone else and put more mental focus into it than anyone else.

If he had devoted that kind of work ethic and mental focus into offense, he'd have given MJ a run for his money. But Rodman didn't give a damn about offense.

How funny is that moron who said that Rodman wasn't coordinated.

Right. That's why he had such great body control on defense to guard anyone from Kevin Johnson on the weak side to Shaquille O'Neal on the strong side.

It's sad what this new generation of basketball fans find relevant. Basketball IQ's are falling into the toilet at an alarming rate. You don't see someone throw down a 360 or knock down a 3 pointer, and you assume they just can't do it, EVER.

Nevermind the fact that Rodman didn't WANT to play offense.

Mathius

I don't agree with this 100%.

We all know that the effort that Rodman put in to rebounding and defense is basically unmatched by anyone. However, if he had put that amount of effort in to offense, he might have been a very good offensive player. But, I don't think he would have been near the level of Michael Jordan.

I don't think size would be too much of an issure for Rodman, because he didn't let that effect him defensively in any way, so I don't think it would have effected him much offensively, but it certainly wouldn't have helped him, because he wasn't the fastest guy for his size.

His shot was awkward, but like I said in my previous post, that can be attributed to a stunt of growth in his offensive game due to playing on teams that didn't need another offensive player. A summer or two with a shooting coach could have fixed that and made it looke more presentable and much more effective.

Had he put the effort in to offense as he did on defense, he might have been a very good offensive player, but as good as Jordan? I don't think so.

[mlh1981]

Rodman was also too skinny to be able to play the post as a 4. What was he, 6'8 220? Sure, he would've gotten effort points and could've developed a jump shot with hard work, but I couldn't see him being able to back down a Karl Malone into the post.

[eliteballer]

Rodman was the most gifted rebounder and defender of his era for one simple reason. He worked harder at it than anyone else and put more mental focus into it than anyone else.

I wouldn't say he was a more gifted rebounder than Barkley. Imagine if Barkley just focused on rebounding like Rodman.

Rodman was also too skinny to be able to play the post as a 4.

He was pretty big in his later years.

You guys realize Phil might not just be talking about pure ability, right? He could be including things like enthusiasm, work ethic, teamwork, stamina, coachability(in terms of understanding the game). All things Rodman had in spades. Even then, he was fast in the open court, strong, and great at leaping.

[DieHardBullsFan]

interesting yahoo tidbid:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/bal...urn=nba,103886

the guy was a freak- since 1977-78 season, he has 4 of the top 5 seasons for rebounds per game: 18.7 (1st), 18.3 (2nd) , 17.3 (4th) , 16.8 (5th)- moses malone is 3rd with 17.6 and led the NBA in rebounding from 1991-92 to 1997-1998. hard to argue with phil there.

who is comparable today to rodman? reggie evans? dwight howard? tyson chandler? david lee?

and who do you think is the most athletic player phil has ever coached?

I agree with the Rodman statement......but I know Im going to get some heat for this but I think Lamar Odom has to be his second most "athletic" player hes coached.....

[bdreason]

See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius

So being atheletic makes you the GOAT?

GTFO.

Rodman was freakishly atheletic and probably the best rebounder of all time, but that doesn't mean he could have been a great scorer. Shooting the ball is different than playing defense, it requires coordination. I'm a great defensive player and rebounder as well (also good at attacking the rim), but I don't have great coordination, and hence will never be a GREAT shooter.

[bdreason]

I'm so proud of each and every one of you morons for living up to my expectations and debating Rodman's physical gifts when the point I was making is this:

Rodman was the most gifted rebounder and defender of his era for one simple reason. He worked harder at it than anyone else and put more mental focus into it than anyone else.

If he had devoted that kind of work ethic and mental focus into offense, he'd have given MJ a run for his money. But Rodman didn't give a damn about offense.

How funny is that moron who said that Rodman wasn't coordinated.

Right. That's why he had such great body control on defense to guard anyone from Kevin Johnson on the weak side to Shaquille O'Neal on the strong side.

It's sad what this new generation of basketball fans find relevant. Basketball IQ's are falling into the toilet at an alarming rate. You don't see someone throw down a 360 or knock down a 3 pointer, and you assume they just can't do it, EVER.

Nevermind the fact that Rodman didn't WANT to play offense.

Mathius

I could have been the GOAT too, but I just didn't WANT to play defense or offense.

Comparing Rodman to Jordan is just retarded. Just stop.

[gotbacon23]

I could have been the GOAT too, but I just didn't WANT to play defense or offense.

Comparing Rodman to Jordan is just retarded. Just stop.

its also stupid to say that rodman would be as good as jordan on offense if he dedicated his work ethic to it because crap just doesn't work that way.

why wasn't kendall gill (i just picked a random player) the greatest offensive force ever? did he not work hard? was he not athletic enough?

kendall gill had very good athleticism and by all accounts was a good guy and probably worked his butt off to be the best basketball player he could be- hate to break it to you but the difference in athleticisim between a lot of nba players is minimal. they are ALL professional athletes, after all. and many of them (though not all) have a crazy good work ethic- but the combination of a great work ethic and athleticism does not make someone MJ. MJ was above and beyond just work ethic and athleticism, though he was elite there too.

[CelticForce1349]

...and I certainly enjoy the fact that he signs his name to every post he makes. As if we didn't know who is posting under his screen name. Oh, and just so there is no confusion...



CelticForce1349

[Loki]

I actually agree with Mathius to a certain degree. Physically Lebron, Vince Carter and Rodman, those athletic freaks could have been better than Jordan. Jordan's athleticism wasn't so out of this world that no one can catch him. There were a lot of people more gifted physically.

Carter has a case. Rodman, however, is nowhere near as athletic as Jordan. Nowhere near. I'm not sure how anyone can even say this with a straight face. How the hell are you measuring athleticism?

And there were certainly not a "lot" of people more athletically gifted than Jordan. Maybe 6-7 guys all time if you include all positions, and those are all arguable.