Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

[Nevaeh]

Great perspective. I understand why MJ is considered the GOAT by many. What I don't understand, however, is how so many observers (most of whom never saw Wilt play), rank Chamberlain so low in these "rankings."

Chamberlain OWNS the NBA RECORD BOOK. He was probably never outplayed in his 29 post-season series by an opposing center (jeez, you would be hard-pressed to find individual games, much less an entire series.) AND, the NBA instituted RULES to curtail Wilt's dominance (and virtually none of them had much impact against him.)

BTW, Wilt had SIX 70+ point games (not just four)...which is two more than all of the rest of the players in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED. He also had 32 60+ point games (Jordan and Kobe are next with five each)...which is also two more than all of the other 60+ point games in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED.

Regarding his scoring...he not only has the only three 38 ppg seasons in NBA history (unless you count Baylor's part-time season one year), he averaged nearly 40 ppg (39.4 ppg to be exact)...over the course of his first seven seasons...COMBINED.

jlauber,

As much as I respect Wilt for all he's accomplished statistically, he honestly should have had a few more rings under his belt with that level of Dominance. There's just no excuse for him to be THAT damn good, but couldn't do better in the ring department. This just proves that stats alone don't make someone the GOAT to everybody.

People pick MJ because he was the complete package. His big games always had a nail biter element to them, but you never saw him flinch up during any big games that mattered. Anybody who's 6-0 in the Finals (the most important part of the season) HAD to be doing something right. And it wasn't just about points either.

[The Iron Fist]

[/B]

jlauber,

As much as I respect Wilt for all he's accomplished statistically, he honestly should have had a few more rings under his belt with that level of Dominance. There's just no excuse for him to be THAT damn good, but couldn't do better in the ring department. This just proves that stats alone don't make someone the GOAT to everybody.

People pick MJ because he was the complete package. His big games always had a nail biter element to them, but you never saw him flinch up during any big games that mattered. Anybody who's 6-0 in the Finals (the most important part of the season) HAD to be doing something right. And it wasn't just about points either.

Exactly why Regul8ter posted that article.

I guess the only big games Jordan played in, were the ones in which his teams won the finals.

[JohnWall2]

MJ 4 now.. soon JOHN WALL

[wpdougie2180]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Regarding this subject, there was something one sports historian wrote that is applicable considering many of the posts usually made when this comes up. I've read his work, and while I don't agree with everything he's said, he has a point in this particular instance:

[QUOTE]Baseball

[Nevaeh]

Exactly every true basketball fan should at least read that once and try to digest what he is saying.

wpdougie, it was a good read and everything, but the title of the thread STILL remains "Who is the Greatest of All Time For You?

If people list Jordan and give legit reasons why, that only pertain to the game itself and not shoe commercials, then what's the friggin problem? "No No NO, see MJ CAN'T be your favorite because.....um, lets see........let me bring out my tons of stat sheets here......... yes, see Player X once dunked from the 3-point line blind folded, while scoring 50 points off of offensive rebounds alone.

Look, if people have a Favorite, that's cool. If the reason is legit, cool. But people can't be getting mad because certain players aren't chosen as THE BEST in a thread like this. I'm not a Kobe fan, but I won't slam people who have him as number one in a thread that's a personal preference kind of thing.

However, if they bring arguments like "Kobe could've 3-peated in 91-93 with the Bulls", then people should expect someone to step in and debate that claim. This thread for me is basically learning the reason why people pick a certain player, and I can respect that fully.

[32jazz]

Wilt Chamberlain


personal favorite- Magic Johnson

[Pointguard]

The only way to get around Jordan as GOAT, and to me they are/can be legit arguments is greatness in terms of records and changing the game (Wilt) , or wins (Russell) or accomplishments and team affect in a great era (Magic).

I will offer somethings I see that are overlooked.

Different priorities will always affect the way people give credence to greatness. One thing I notice is that the mental aspect of the game gets no play. The guys so good they can play chess, dictate pace, change the flow, affect the confidence of others, be a coach on the floor and be great leaders. Since this isn't valued I understand why Magic and Bird get no play.

Winning is a good point and most great players are going to win it all. But is it a always a direct correlation to greatness? Shaq was an incredible dominant player - to me the most dominant in the modern game, but a lot of things had to be in place for him to win. One can easily argue that without a great coach that won it all before that Shaq doesn't win. Championships are more coach loaded than player loaded. I will start a thread on this point.

Russell bypasses this because he won as a player coach. But its very applicable to the other players in GOAT convo - KAJ, Shaq, Jordan, Wilt.... But if winning is more coach related than Magic and Bird should have more value. If you are playing Magic's pace and Magic's thinking and execution at high speeds is superior to your teams thinking and execution, Magic is dominating in a way not seen by the casual fan.

The second the other team begins to engage in his tempo, Magic is controlling the game. His teammates will flow with confidence because he will get them into the game and the opposition will muddle in confusion. If Magic has somebody like Amare Stoudamire running with him - Amare would be dominant and more than likely ranked very high as PF all-time. Magic's greatness is largely related to how he could incorporate, different styles and players in an age when there were a variety of teams with different strengths.

I think Wilt defined the center position and took on every responsibility of that position better than anybody else after he gave it definition. He multitasked at a level the others could only dream about. He was hardy ever outplayed and did the block, rebound, pass, efficiency thing better than all centers. Young Wilt does what he do to Kareem just like he did it to everybody else. Too much energy, too fundamental, too talented, too athletic, too strong, too resourceful, too skilled, too fast to be stopped. And yeah, he affects Kareem's game on the other end like he did after knee operation and his post prime game settled in.

My top five are Jordan, Wilt, Magic then Russell/KAJ. Each for a different reason - except MJ and KAJ who have the same strengths.

[Niquesports]

The only way to get around Jordan as GOAT, and to me they are/can be legit arguments is greatness in terms of records and changing the game (Wilt) , or wins (Russell) or accomplishments and team affect in a great era (Magic).

I will offer somethings I see that are overlooked.

Different priorities will always affect the way people give credence to greatness. One thing I notice is that the mental aspect of the game gets no play. The guys so good they can play chess, dictate pace, change the flow, affect the confidence of others, be a coach on the floor and be great leaders. Since this isn't valued I understand why Magic and Bird get no play.

Winning is a good point and most great players are going to win it all. But is it a always a direct correlation to greatness? Shaq was an incredible dominant player - to me the most dominant in the modern game, but a lot of things had to be in place for him to win. One can easily argue that without a great coach that won it all before that Shaq doesn't win. Championships are more coach loaded than player loaded. I will start a thread on this point.

Russell bypasses this because he won as a player coach. But its very applicable to the other players in GOAT convo - KAJ, Shaq, Jordan, Wilt.... But if winning is more coach related than Magic and Bird should have more value. If you are playing Magic's pace and Magic's thinking and execution at high speeds is superior to your teams thinking and execution, Magic is dominating in a way not seen by the casual fan.

The second the other team begins to engage in his tempo, Magic is controlling the game. His teammates will flow with confidence because he will get them into the game and the opposition will muddle in confusion. If Magic has somebody like Amare Stoudamire running with him - Amare would be dominant and more than likely ranked very high as PF all-time. Magic's greatness is largely related to how he could incorporate, different styles and players in an age when there were a variety of teams with different strengths.

I think Wilt defined the center position and took on every responsibility of that position better than anybody else after he gave it definition. He multitasked at a level the others could only dream about. He was hardy ever outplayed and did the block, rebound, pass, efficiency thing better than all centers. Young Wilt does what he do to Kareem just like he did it to everybody else. Too much energy, too fundamental, too talented, too athletic, too strong, too resourceful, too skilled, too fast to be stopped. And yeah, he affects Kareem's game on the other end like he did after knee operation and his post prime game settled in.

My top five are Jordan, Wilt, Magic then Russell/KAJ. Each for a different reason - except MJ and KAJ who have the same strengths.

Great Post I disagree with the coach part I think there have only been 4 coaches Red,Phil,Pop and that were major reasons for there teams winning. Most of the other coaches if another coach had the same talent they would have won also. I want to make Riley the 4th lead 3 different teams to a finals and 2 of them won.I don't like the Number Top 5 or Top 10. I don't see how a player gets kicked out. I mean really has Shaq done anything so great to move Russ out the top 5 or Has Kobe done anything to pass over Magic ? I like just saying Goat, Elite,Super Star, Great Player. I would say Shaq,Oscar,Kobe, are GOAT level players.

[Pointguard]

Great Post I disagree with the coach part I think there have only been 4 coaches Red,Phil,Pop and that were major reasons for there teams winning. Most of the other coaches if another coach had the same talent they would have won also. I want to make Riley the 4th lead 3 different teams to a finals and 2 of them won.I don't like the Number Top 5 or Top 10. I don't see how a player gets kicked out. I mean really has Shaq done anything so great to move Russ out the top 5 or Has Kobe done anything to pass over Magic ? I like just saying Goat, Elite,Super Star, Great Player. I would say Shaq,Oscar,Kobe, are GOAT level players.

Thanks Nique for the critique! I created a separate post on the coach thing so I'll joint you there on that. I don't have Shaq in my top five. I agree with you about Shaq, Kobe and the Big O.

[Sakkreth]

Magic Johnson.

[Big#50]

KAJ
Duncan
Shaq

[Duncan21formvp]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell

[Duncan21formvp]

Great perspective. I understand why MJ is considered the GOAT by many. What I don't understand, however, is how so many observers (most of whom never saw Wilt play), rank Chamberlain so low in these "rankings."

Chamberlain OWNS the NBA RECORD BOOK. He was probably never outplayed in his 29 post-season series by an opposing center (jeez, you would be hard-pressed to find individual games, much less an entire series.) AND, the NBA instituted RULES to curtail Wilt's dominance (and virtually none of them had much impact against him.)

BTW, Wilt had SIX 70+ point games (not just four)...which is two more than all of the rest of the players in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED. He also had 32 60+ point games (Jordan and Kobe are next with five each)...which is also two more than all of the other 60+ point games in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED.

Regarding his scoring...he not only has the only three 38 ppg seasons in NBA history (unless you count Baylor's part-time season one year), he averaged nearly 40 ppg (39.4 ppg to be exact)...over the course of his first seven seasons...COMBINED.

And yet,


Wilt had all these records in the season, but in the playoffs in his own era guys like West and Baylor had more 40+ point games and more 30+ point games than he did despite Wilt playing in more playoffs games then they did.

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History

MJ - 109
Kobe - 78
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60


Not to mention his numbers dropped dramatically from season to playoffs. He averaged 7 ppg less in the playoffs and had a PER that dropped from 26.1 to 22.8
Also his WS/PER 48 dropped from .248 to .2000

[jlauber]

And yet,


Wilt had all these records in the season, but in the playoffs in his own era guys like West and Baylor had more 40+ point games and more 30+ point games than he did despite Wilt playing in more playoffs games then they did.

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History

MJ - 109
Kobe - 78
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60


Not to mention his numbers dropped dramatically from season to playoffs. He averaged 7 ppg less in the playoffs and had a PER that dropped from 26.1 to 22.8
Also his WS/PER 48 dropped from .248 to .2000

I am currently posting my reply to this "decline" in another thread...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...=165643&page=6