This album from 90>>> almost anything today

[ThePhantomCreep]

No artist from any era is better than Eminem imo. And the 80's and 90's had better music than any of the decades you mentioned. Other than a select few rock groups there isn't much worth listening to from back then.

An artist who can't sing or play an instrument. If you say so.

[eriX]

just because they dont get exposure doesn't mean there isnt good artist today...

and there is never music thats "better" than another

[andgar923]

Nah. You never really have. What you are is what some used to accuse me of(wrongly). Just era biased to an unreasonable extent. Its not even just on music. You do the same shit on basketball. Iremember something about Jordan in his last season on the Wizards being as good as 10/11 Wade.....perhaps some bullshit about Reggie Miller being a better scorer than anyone now except I believe Kobe and Durant.

Just a lot of....non sense.

No offense meant but you really dont strike me as the type its worth having a conversation with on some of these matters.

Funny thing is I had the EXACT same arguments on today vs yesteryear with my uncle damn near 20 years ago.

You do know that people who were our current age in the early 90s thought that days rappers and singers were garbage right?

Biggie, Rkelly, and so on were getting clowned on Comic View like Drake/Wayne/whoever would now.

Id tell them the same thing id tell you. just because Marvin Gaye existed doesnt mean a bunch of people not worth remembering didnt exist with him.

Im never gonna get into most of todays hits. Just isnt my kind of music. But my family wouldnt let me play my Public enemy tapes...thought it was just noise.

Doesnt mean I was listening to garbage. It means 30-40 year olds almost never like what 16 year olds do.

Ive been on ISH since topics like this bashed the late 90s/early 2000s people right up to people posting youtube videos with comments like "When they made REAL hiphop!" on old 50 Cent songs we mocked on here when they came out.

Its just....people getting older.

But if you looked at Reggie's game it was (at that point in time) better than most player's offensive game.

A. His shot was better, so right from the start there's that advantage. But he could use screens, set you up, had an abundance of fakes and small moves that'll get you off guard, was sneaky quick, knew how to use his body, had good footwork, had an underrated post game, had a almost unstoppable fadeaway. Shit that most players today either don't have or don't put it together.

B. Older people didn't like hip hop because it was new to them. Old school hip hop heads that grew up with hip hop's inception weren't opposed to Nas, Wu, Tribe, BIG, Pac for the most part. True you may have had some disliking it for the violence and cursing but they eventually came around to it and appreciated the evolution of the art form. I've met some older folks that were like that originally "Today's rappers all talk about violence" but that was mostly their only critique. They recognized that it wasn't the cookie cutter A-B-C rapper from the early 80s they grew up on. Even the old school cats gave tons of props to the 90s rappers. So it wasn't them being nostalgic or wanting to prop up their era. The talent and evolution of the art form was recognized.

You're always gonna have great and bad artists, you're always gonna have artists that are remembered and albums that live on forever in any genre/era.

But if you compare the worse to the worse, the best to the best, the middle of the pack to the middle of the pack, the 90s (hip hop) will win out 8/10 times.

Mediocre artists front he 90s>>> mediocre artists from today

Fruity artist front the 90s>>> fruity artists from today (Drake)

On another note, we do have signs of music evolving tho.

Take EDM for example. We can clearly see the evolution from the Chicago House of the 80s to how it progressed in the 90s and 00s. We can see how it drew from different styles and genres and how technology actually aided in its evolution. There's things that are done today that one wouldn't even think about doing in the past. Even if one doesn't like artists like Skrillex and his ilk, the progression of that style of music is obvious. The technique and skill level has advanced, to be honest most of it may have to do with the software/hardware advancements but its advancements nonetheless.

So it's almost of a cop out when people say hip hop hasn't progressed because music as a whole hasn't, when we see evidence of it in other genres.

Like I stated, you post today's top (music chart) artist and I'll post one from a random 90s year.

[andgar923]

Randoom post...

A threat title in the NBA forum made me think of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB54dZkzZOY

Good music never gets old and can't be denied.

.

[Kblaze8855]

Im not going into Reggie vs the likes of Melo, Lebron, Wade pre decline(this was some time ago) and so on as a scorer...that just....isnt going anywhere. I watched dude score 16 with 70% of his teams plays involving a screen intended to get him a look too many times to act like he was some special scorer. Perhaps the worst ratio of plays run for to points scored in the history of the sport. Dude could barely dribble forward and knock down a pull up in his prime. He wasnt coming off screens because he didnt feel like taking over the way other stars could. He came off a gang of screens because he wasnt good creating his own shot. And ive seen his teammates, his coaches, opposing coaches, HOF commentators, and countless fans point out the same.

Anyway.....

That today vs yesteryear shit really doesnt prove anything. I'll use Redman since ive been listening to him a lot lately. Songs like Cant Wait and tonites Da Nite.....from albums that topped the charts.

Would I rather hear them over some Lil Wayne? Yes. Yes I would.

Does that mean that Waynes wordplay and flow on 6'7'' is worse than Redmans?


Life is the bitch, and death is her sister
Sleep is the cousin, what a ****in' family picture
You know Father Time, and we all know Mother Nature
It's all in the family, but I am of no relation


You know I'mma ball 'til they turn off the field lights
The fruits of my labor, I enjoy 'em while they still ripe
Bitch, stop playin', I do it like a king do
If these ****** animals, then I'mma have a mink soon

Paper chasin', tell that paper, "Look, I'm right behind ya"
Bitch, real G's move in silence like lasagna
People say I'm borderline crazy, sorta kinda
Woman of my dreams? I don't sleep so I can't find her



Compared to:


You wanna see me get cool, please, save it for the breeze
Cause the lyrics and tracks, make me funky like cottage cheese
**** the smooth shit, I get down wit the boom bip
Like Q-Tip, I kick more styles than Bruce shoe's kick
But tonight's the night what I write tonight
This type of funk with the flavor like Mike 'n' Ike's
Hanging out wit my ******, my ******
The Pack Pistol Posse keep they fingers on the triggers
I keep the 40 between my lap, coolin, rollin down the highway
Blunt system pumps cause it's Friday
Roll over to pick my boys up, we raise a lot of noise
Cause, we can do that black, so "Get the Bozack" Jack
Remember, I do the type of evil that men do
Like cursin out my window at a bitch and her friend too
So turn the volume up a notch
And watch the ba-BUMP, ba-BUMP, make ya speakers pop
That's the funk, when it pumps it makes your rump
Jump, jump, jump.. jump, jump, jump
But if you want to see a fly but frantic
Cool romantic, more slicker than my man Rick
You better check the Yellow Pages under smooth shit
Cause Red ain't down for the bullshit


It isnt like someone being objective could call Red more clever....his flow was easily more basic....partly because he didnt have all the computers to mask breath control issues....but ive seen Wayne rap his ass off live. He isnt exactly Big Pun on Yea Baby with engineers removing his heavy breathing.

But id still rather listen to Redman....

Partly because I like 90s production more. But being real about it....todays producers could steal and flip it just as easily. Hell with modern computers?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEObjARFo5o#t=19

They could rob Issac Hayes blind even easier.

But they flip songs a different way. Still sample but there is less of the original than in many 90s songs which were straight up thefts. I loved death row but Dre and Daz pretty much ripped off 30 second snippets of George clinton songs and called it producing.

Does the end result sound better than Wayne to me?

Yes.

But im not gonna act like because the guys now take a different approach its easier or worse.

I think the reason music in general is worse than before the 80s because thats around the time you didnt need real musicians involved. Once the sampling got going, drum kits, and keyboards took over it was mostly just rippingoff real musicians.

And they did it with such disregard...you straight copy a great song and add drums its gonna sound good off the bat.

So the simpler music of the time sounded better to me. I love Pete Rock. How he would flip 6 seconds of this and that....but it is what it is. Steal from a great source you can get a great end result.

But me wanting to hear that simpler non computerized music doesnt make it better...

And the lyrics are often no better either.

Do I feel anyone now is out rapping Nas on Illmatic? No. Do I have younger cousins who think Kendrick Lamar is? Yes. And im not sure how I argue with Rigamortis or whatever. Dude can rap his ass off....and would eat 90% of the people I listened to in the 90s alive just verse for verse or arguing about flow.

Just a different world. I like the one I came up in. My little cousin(about 19-20) cant stand most 90s shit outside Dre, Snoop, and a little Pac.

He genuinely prefers Rich Homie Quon and Kirko Bangs to De La Soul or Main Source. I dont get it....but my cousin Rick(about 50) doesnt get why I put Outkast over Run DMC.

Generational thing.

[dr.hee]

Generational thing.

This

[andgar923]

Im not going into Reggie vs the likes of Melo, Lebron, Wade pre decline(this was some time ago) and so on as a scorer...that just....isnt going anywhere. I watched dude score 16 with 70% of his teams plays involving a screen intended to get him a look too many times to act like he was some special scorer. Perhaps the worst ratio of plays run for to points scored in the history of the sport. Dude could barely dribble forward and knock down a pull up in his prime. He wasnt coming off screens because he didnt feel like taking over the way other stars could. He came off a gang of screens because he wasnt good creating his own shot. And ive seen his teammates, his coaches, opposing coaches, HOF commentators, and countless fans point out the same.

I agree he wasn't the best at creating off the dribble, as say MJ, Mitch, Melo, KD he wasn't as bad as you say he was.

Not the end all but here's a vid of him doing everything I described:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_nVfKndnQo

He didn't become a hall of fame player by simply coming off screens. He was crafty with the ball (as we see in the vid, I can post more if needed).

But my main point at the time that post was made, was to show how he was more versatile than Bron (at that point in his career). Bron wasn't as polished back then. He either drove or took a shot, very little else to his game offensively when compared against Miller. Miller had an array of quick moves, head fakes, step backs, even if they were coming off screens he set you up. THAT was my main point.

As to the music argument

Red's verse may not be as lyrical as Wayne's, but the entire delivery, flow, wordplay (within it's context)>>> Wayne's

Red's rhyme scheme is inherently more complex to pull off. Red was not known to be a great lyricist, he was more of a clever rapper that used his flow/cadence/delivery like Meth.

Regarding production, the production by Bomb Squad in that album is killing damn near everything today. But I did mention that production for the most part is leveled off. What I meant by that is, overall it hasn't decline as much as the rapping aspect (although there's tons of ABC keyboard simple beats).

I remember coming up you had to be good because studio time was expensive. you simply couldn't jump in and waste time. Even if you owned your own gear you had to learn how to use it. And the fact that you had to learn how to use it improved your skill and technique. You had to also go dig, which served as ear training and recognition.

Today computers has made things easier and accessible. Anybody can produce, the knowledge nor the training have to be there. That automatically takes away from the technical aspects. Unless one is a student and masters some of the software which from my experience most hip hop producers don't. Even some of the cats that work on hardware don't have the same technical abilities that earlier producers did due to the advancements of software and hardware integration (for better or worse). Having said that, the advancements make things easier for producers so they can do things today that were harder back then.

So things sorta level out at the end regarding production.

I can appreciate some of today's production ( I actually really dig Drake's production to the point that I study it). Sure it has a different sound, but if we sit there and analyze it, most of it doesn't compare to what the Bomb Squad did. I sit here and Im analyzing the different samples, how they flipped them, the technique used to flip them, the finished product etc. and Im blown. Shit that is even complex for me to duplicate with the software I have at my disposal.

Ask me to recreate some of today's hottest beats, and no problem.

Ask me to recreate a Bomb Squad joint and Im stuck.

As far as it being a generational thing...

I already mentioned that early hip hop heads have praised hip hop from the 90s. Outside the few critical of the violence and cursing, the vast majority acknowledged the evolution.

Im sure there's youngsters that feel their era is superior... but this generation is stupid in general.

When we were young we conceded that certain music and artists from the 60s and 70s were superior We still valued and idolized hip hop pioneers. But we were at a intersection and saw it evolve. We went from Doug E Fresh 'All the Way to Heaven' to Binary Star's 'Reality Check'.

[andgar923]

I'm kinda agreed.

Well... this was mainly about hip hop. We have seen better rock/alt acts than hip hop acts tho.

[Kblaze8855]

Ive watched Reggie Miller in person at his best. Not the mid to late 90s. When he still had the fade. Chicago Stadium Reggie Miller live in person. I have seen more of Reggie than I need to. Stand alone videos prove nothing because they can be made for everyone. I should know...ive made hundreds. Shit I made a Reggie Miller video like 10 years ago and combed through footage of mine ive never seen online to do it. I know his game....well. Just so happens ive seen dozens a lot better. Just wasnt a special scorer. Special if the standard is the average nba guard....

Drop him in the league now hes a notch below James Harden as a scorer. And Harden isnt that good either.

Given equal minutes in a similar situation hes not gonna score much more than Kendall Gill.

As for this:

Red's verse may not be as lyrical as Wayne's, but the entire delivery, flow, wordplay (within it's context)>>> Wayne's

Thats the kinda thing that just just tells me we can make no progress here.

Better word play...that verse vs 6'7''...

There was virtually no wordplay in it.

And this:

Red's rhyme scheme is inherently more complex to pull off.

There was nothing complex. Just a bit of off beat rhyming. Couldnt be more basic. Not like I posted say....Da Goodness. Redman is capable of some complex difficult to mimic flows but Tonights the night is childsplay.

I just like it because I always liked his style and I like the simple ass stolen beat.

So many people around my age can only do what you did there...give some backhanded compliment to acknowledge the obvious(waynes verse being more lyrical) then turn around and hate(it being worse in every other way).

Dude I went to school with was at my house a while back and a mutual fried was playing some Rick Ross song. He right away goes into the fake....cant rap...all this. I play one song. Ask him to forget who it is and listen to the first verse. One of the Mafia Music videos. Ross is on some

"Plenty cream...my women pose like figurines. Whips weaving through traffic the triple black centipedes"

Shit....

Be begrudgingly admits dude can rap and his production is incredible...but he still doesnt like him. Which I dont have issue with. But it forced me to ask...if you never listen to him how did you think he cant rap...and that the songs were bad.

Came down to something he heard in a club somewhere. Bugatti. Ace hood, Ross, and future. He hated the general feel of it. Opinion was...it was more of these new dudes who just cant rap. So I put him on some of Ace Hoods real music....Dreamer. **** the World. He had to admit once more....dude can rap.

Put him on some Gibbs. Another guy who makes songs that make people who barely listen....assume he isnt a good rapper.

He was feeling him. But he goes in hating. And its that way with so many people around my age and older.

Just hate first and never listen. Act like guys making nursery rhymes in the 80s are better just....because.

I try not to do that. Some guys hot right now just....suck to me. But im gonna hear it out.

Gucci is terrible. I live in the south now ive heard every album and mixtape. He has never spit a verse that was worth a second listen. future is just....a joke. He does know how to make a hook...but I cant listen to him for the most part. 2 chains isnt a great writer but hes kinda Snoop like in that he takes lyrics that mean nothing and may just be nonsense and flows it so well it works. Not someone im a fan of but there are songs he makes better.

I can be fair. Lot of guys seem to have lost that in favor of an era they liked coming up.

You are one of them. Music...sports...everything ive heard you discuss. Perhaps it wouldnt seem that way in person....probably just sit down and discuss it over some BBQ and brown liquor with my people we might see more eye to eye. But just the way it comes through in text...you dont seem to be the most reasonable person on these matters.

[BoutPractice]

Amazing album, but it really sells itself, doesn't need outrageous statements in its defence. Every era has its classics, just because the context changes doesn't mean that people are less talented.

Other than typical nostalgia, I'd say politics are no stranger to why "old school" hip hop is put on a pedestal - current hip hop (like indie rock compared to punk) has replaced confrontation against the system with a focus on sound and a sense of collective identity (Afrocentric, gangsta, whatever) with the fragmented inner world of an isolated man (Kanye of course is the poster boy here). Some will find this trend troubling because the injustices that more political rappers were exposing to the world are still going on strong today. The reality hasn't changed much, but the discourse has mostly moved on to other things.