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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    Quote Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
    lol @ long posts attempting to explain "the mechanics of dunking" to protect Blakes reputation
    I felt as though it took a relatively extended post to go beyond the mere "No it's not/yes it is" back and forth. I attempted to explain as a lifelong fan of the dunk, not as a backer of Blake Griffin's reputation. I thought what I had to say had a lot of merit and I supported my claim with examples. I'm not saying it's my way or the highway, but I like to think what I said was worthy of consideration.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    Quote Originally Posted by NBA.com

    a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an opponent by extending a hand, forearm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a position that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.
    Obviously there is grey area, room for interpretation, with any foul, but the rules are pretty clear on this. There's a difference between using your arm for mid-air stability/balance and kind of colliding naturally with the defender... and using your arm to hold, push, or impede the defender for the sake of making room for your attempt. Players get called for this all time time, and rightfully so. you can't tell me that Griffin's off hand getting as high up as the defender's blocking hand is "normal".

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    Quote Originally Posted by SCdac
    Obviously there is grey area, room for interpretation, with any foul, but the rules are pretty clear on this. There's a difference between using your arm for mid-air stability/balance and kind of colliding naturally with the defender... and using your arm to hold, push, or impede the defender for the sake of making room for your attempt. Players get called for this all time time, and rightfully so. you can't tell me that Griffin's off hand getting as high up as the defender's blocking hand is "normal".
    If I had to be truthful, I actually would in fact find the off-hand height to be normal. I think it's completely dependent upon where the defender's at in terms of height.

    For instance, using the Frye/Griffin example. A snapshot (provided a page earlier) can make it seem as if Griffin has a secret motive, and it's to perform a prolonged grab on a defender rising high to make a block. However, I feel as though videos tend to provide more truth in this regard. Here's the play: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cLEDVvwVUA

    To be clear, that video doesn't mean there wasn't a grab. But as fans of the game, I think one can recognize the incidental nature of such contact (or at least it's non-importance to the play). As in, if we were honest with ourselves, and we were officiating such a game, we're likely not going to bat an eye at what his left arm may have done to a player who was well on his way toward descent and was not challenging Griffin's dunk to begin with.

    Sometimes photos can in fact tell the whole story. Oftentimes, they cannot. To be completely truthful, when I was younger, I used to look at this picture in my Inside Stuff magazine . . .



    For years, I thought it was a photo of Spud Webb performing a "cross-heels" trick dunk. I thought that was what made his slam so special. I used to "cross-heel" dunk on my lowered rim as a 3rd grader to be like Spud. I mean, as it turns out, it wasn't a cross-heel thing, it was a double pump two handed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5wBI98NXEE#t=0m14s . And that's kind of my point. I see how folks were up in arms about the Gasol dunk, but to pull photo stills and draw by-the-books-that's-illegal-and-he-should-be-fined conclusions might be a little much.
    Last edited by Rake2204; 04-12-2012 at 07:15 PM.

  4. #64
    Good college starter Phong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    Quote Originally Posted by Rake2204
    For instance, using the Frye/Griffin example. A snapshot (provided a page earlier) can make it seem as if Griffin has a secret motive, and it's to perform a prolonged grab on a defender rising high to make a block. However, I feel as though videos tend to provide more truth in this regard. Here's the play: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cLEDVvwVUA
    Using all 3 angles on the video, and going frame by frame, you can see Frye raising his arm for a block attempt, Griffin grabbing it and pushing it down until it's no longer raised.

    Last edited by Phong; 04-12-2012 at 07:44 PM.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    Damn Phong delivering fatal blow after blow to them trolls

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    Quote Originally Posted by Phong
    Using all 3 angles on the video, and going frame by frame, you can see Frye raising his arm for a block attempt, Griffin grabbing it and pushing it down until it's no longer raised.



    thats one heavy dose of ether

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    Quote Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW


    It's natural motion don't you get it? It's totally natural to grab an opponents arm and push it away from you, just like it's totally natural to flair your elbows right into the softspot of your defenders neck
    It's totally natural to travel but unfortunately it's against the rules.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    I like how the BG fanboys had nothing to say until they had someone to bandwagon off of (Rake)

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    Quote Originally Posted by Phong
    Using all 3 angles on the video, and going frame by frame, you can see Frye raising his arm for a block attempt, Griffin grabbing it and pushing it down until it's no longer raised.

    I feel as though my second paragraph on the Griffin/Frye exchange was overlooked.

    To be clear, that video doesn't mean there wasn't a grab. But as fans of the game, I think one can recognize the incidental nature of such contact (or at least it's non-importance to the play). As in, if we were honest with ourselves, and we were officiating such a game, we're likely not going to bat an eye at what his left arm may have done to a player who was well on his way toward descent and was not challenging Griffin's dunk to begin with.
    Initially, I referred to the grab as "incidental" but I realized that was likely the wrong word for the situation. "Non-important" (which I mentioned in the parentheses) is at least closer to what I was going for. Some may feel Frye would have successfully blocked the dunk had there been no off-arm contact. I am not in that camp, which is why I refer to it as being non-important (or I suppose unimportant might be the correct word).

    The only point I was trying to make there was how a photo is left open to interpretation. Maybe I could look at the Frye photo and assume "Hey, you know what? I bet that was a super quick grab that occurred in the blink of an eye and is likely comparable to a number of other grabs that occur in the game of basketball". Or I could have looked at that photo and thought, "Wow, look how long he's hanging onto him, how could the officials miss that?"

    Essentially, to spell the point out, I feel photos only tell part of the story. Full videos often provide perspective for what we're seeing. And as I mentioned, I acknowledge the grab, but I feel the video shows it wasn't as prolonged, devious or integral to the play as many are led to believe.

    To be truthful, I feel as though we could study small portions of any given possession and discover numerous by-the-book infractions. It's not something I'm terribly interested in doing, but it's there. Still, I find the vast majority of Griffin's dunks to be of legal nature. Contrary to popular belief, I do not think the NBA has conspired to allow Blake Griffin to complete a style of dunk they'd otherwise deem illegal. This doesn't mean all his dunks are devoid of illegalities, but as a whole, I support his finishes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jameerthefear
    I like how the BG fanboys had nothing to say until they had someone to bandwagon off of (Rake)
    I apologize in that regard.
    Last edited by Rake2204; 04-12-2012 at 08:24 PM.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    Quote Originally Posted by taucesays
    It's totally natural to travel but unfortunately it's against the rules.
    good call

    -Smak

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    Quote Originally Posted by Phong
    Using all 3 angles on the video, and going frame by frame, you can see Frye raising his arm for a block attempt, Griffin grabbing it and pushing it down until it's no longer raised.

    You're my new favorite poster.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    Rake, I get what you're saying, and nobody wants the game grinded to a halt because of foul call after foul call... but your explanations make me wonder, at what point would you call it an offensive foul? Regardless of height differential, at what point is the offensive player using the off-arm too much in your opinion (as far as slam-dunks)? ... Assuming the defender isn't going to block the shot anyways (thus making it "unimportant") seems kind of like shaky logic. We would never know if he was going to block the shot if they don't get a fair chance to, and certainly it won't appear like they were if not given a fair chance. Griffin I believe was the league leader in dunks last season, I'd venture to say the majority of them were legit, not just criticizing to do it, but for example that dunk on Gasol the other day looked like an offensive foul (imo). Was it "natural" to drive his arm into Pau's face? seems pretty cheap to me, however nasty and intense.


  13. #73
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    Quote Originally Posted by SCdac
    Rake, I get what you're saying, and nobody wants the game grinded to a halt because of foul call after foul call... but your explanations make me wonder, at what point would you call it an offensive foul? Regardless of height differential, at what point is the offensive player using the off-arm too much in your opinion (as far as slam-dunks)? ... Assuming the defender isn't going to block the shot anyways (thus making it "unimportant") seems kind of like shaky logic. We would never know if he was going to block the shot if they don't get a fair chance to, and certainly it won't appear like they were if not given a fair chance. Griffin I believe was the league leader in dunks last season, I'd venture to say the majority of them were legit, not just criticizing to do it, but for example that dunk on Gasol the other day looked like an offensive foul (imo). Was it "natural" to drive his arm into Pau's face? seems pretty cheap to me, however nasty and intense.

    To be short with it for the time being, I believe the line is crossed when someone blatantly and obviously skews from what their normal action may have looked like had they not been contested. It's obviously just my opinion, but in the Gasol dunk situation, if Griffin were all by himself, I feel his dunk would have looked the same in terms of where his arm would have been. Had Gasol had been a little to the left of Griffin, I still feel Griffin's arm would have gone to the same spot, perhaps brushing Gasol's shoulder or chest.

    I know there's portions of that first paragraph to address and clarify, and I feel there's more to say on this topic but for now I must go watch a new episode of The Office circle the drain.
    Last edited by Rake2204; 04-12-2012 at 10:30 PM.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    I really like Blake Griffin but at this point there is some pretty damning evidence about what he does with that off arm during his dunks.

    A lot of these are fouls.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

    Quote Originally Posted by Rake2204
    To be short with it for the time being, I believe the line is crossed when someone blatantly and obviously skews from what their normal action may have looked like had they not been contested. It's obviously just my opinion, but in the Gasol dunk situation, if Griffin were all by himself, I feel his dunk would have looked the same in terms of where his arm would have been. Had Gasol had been a little to the left of Griffin, I still feel Griffin's arm would have gone to the same spot, perhaps brushing Gasol's shoulder or chest.

    I know there's portions of that first paragraph to address and clarify, and I feel there's more to say on this topic but for now I must go watch a new episode of The Office circle the drain.
    Sorry dude but you're wrong. It's right there in the pic you quote.

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