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Old 03-10-2019, 09:29 AM   #13
Titles are overrated
Kblaze8855's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I love me some me.
Posts: 22,263
Default Re: top 5 two way players in nba history ( aka the real top 5 players in nba history )

At this point anyone who still goes on the Wilt finals/playoffs PPG drop who doesnt acknowledge he made most of his deep playoff runs(5 of his 6 finals) when he made an effort not to score but instead win with defense is either trolling or so misinformed they shouldnt be talking about the issue to begin with.

Like choking is the reason you score less when you take 6 shots a game(in 47 minutes a night) in the playoffs than in seasons you took 32 a game.....

108 of his 160 playoff games were after he made an effort to play like Russell and win off defense, rebounding, and outlet passing. Outside those seasons hes #1 or #2 all time in playoff ppg with Jordan. I think Jordan would be #1 but I dont remember for sure. And even in those seasons a huge number of his playoff games were vs the Celtics who had to that point(and for some time to come) the best defensive front court in history.

Anyway...the issue with all D teams has always been the same. Star bias and not giving credit to guys who only play D. Chris Paul and Lebron both have more all D first teams than Tony Allen. They get the "He has to do so much...." credit though. Lebron and Kobe were all NBA first team over Tony Allen and Iggy on second in 2011. Im not so sure about that. Iggy only made 2 teams total. Doesnt mean the people who made more are better defenders....especially with the lax rules that dont even have the same number of players each year(Some years 6 people make the first team..or different numbers of positions).

From what ive seen/accept id go with

Payton with honorable mention to Frazier with both having the offensive edge on DJ
Jordan with honorable mention to Kobe for his early work
Pippen(Bobby Jones not doing much on offense...Leonard also having a case..Hondo also gets a mention)
KG/Tim no argument from me over who you choose

Center you could go a few ways but Wilt is in the discussion no doubt.

Gonna do it just off all D first teams of people who also are elite on offense Lebron goes over Pippen. Lebron has the 3rd most all d picks of any 3. Doesnt make him the 3rd best defender.

Pippen was to me as good on offense as Lebron on D...meaning...really good...but not all time elite. But you could argue Pippen as closer to the GOAT defender than Lebron to the GOAT offensive player. I dont think either is the case...but I think Pippen has a better case to make. Limit it to position its even easier.
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