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  1. #76
    You're welcome Yao Ming's Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by KingBeasley08
    Why should being the best be ignored? I think its an important to note who the best player is on every championship team
    Because it ignores the 10 other teammates. It's not a 2 vs 2 sport. Put Kobe on the Kings or Blazers during the 3 peat and his path to the championship is easier no matter if he would now be the team's best player.
    Last edited by Yao Ming's Foot; 03-16-2013 at 08:02 PM.

  2. #77
    3-time NBA All-Star
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
    Not based on strength of teammates
    Not based on strength of defenses faced
    Not based on strength of opponents faced

    And thats according to who? Your delusional biased self?

  3. #78
    You're welcome Yao Ming's Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by guy
    And thats according to who? Your delusional biased self?
    All star/ hall of fame voters
    Defensive rating of opponents
    Win loss record of opponents


  4. #79
    NBA Legend kuniva_dAMiGhTy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    And Mike's (statistical output) would be higher if he didn't play w/ Pippen. LBJ's would be higher the last 2 years if he didn't play w/ Wade.

    Magic and Bird's would be higher if they didn't play w/ great players. Same is true of everyone, so that point isn't really relevant.

  5. #80
    NBA Legend kuniva_dAMiGhTy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Calabis
    No Kobe they didn't play with a dominant force which is why they didn't have instant success at the beginning of their careers as far as team wins(3 of your chips are because of Shaq) and you coming into a playoff team. And no Kobe, you would have not matched their numbers in your first two to three seasons....if that's the case you would have been more dominant early on and not sitting behind Eddie Jones.

    Exactly. Funny how Kobe talks about numbers, yet fails to mention he took MORE shots than Shaq.

    2000-01, FGA: Kobe-22.2, Shaq-19.2
    2001-02, FGA: Kobe-20, Shaq-18.3
    2002-03, FGA: Kobe-23.5, Shaq-18.1
    2003-04, FGA: Kobe-18.1, Shaq-14.1

    Bean was a second option in '99, and '99-00. In '98, he was more like a third or fourth option, and in '96-97, Kobe was more like a seventh option. There's a reason for that. He wasn't that great coming out of highschool AND had to earn the right to lead the way offensively.

  6. #81
    GIVEN NOT EARNED ripthekik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
    Exactly. Funny how Kobe talks about numbers, yet fails to mention he took MORE shots than Shaq.

    2000-01, FGA: Kobe-22.2, Shaq-19.2
    2001-02, FGA: Kobe-20, Shaq-18.3
    2002-03, FGA: Kobe-23.5, Shaq-18.1
    2003-04, FGA: Kobe-18.1, Shaq-14.1

    Bean was a second option in '99, and '99-00. In '98, he was more like a third or fourth option, and in '96-97, Kobe was more like a seventh option. There's a reason for that. He wasn't that great coming out of highschool AND had to earn the right to lead the way offensively.
    because he wasn't given the minutes and green light to shoot in his first day in the league, unlike someone else. Kobe earned, someone else given.

  7. #82
    Local High School Star DatAsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
    And Mike's (statistical output) would be higher if he didn't play w/ Pippen. LBJ's would be higher the last 2 years if he didn't play w/ Wade.

    Magic and Bird's would be higher if they didn't play w/ great players. Same is true of everyone, so that point isn't really relevant.
    I think his point was that he spent all but a couple years of his career surrounded by great players. Jordan spent almost half his career on bad to mediocre teams which possibly inflated his stats a bit.

    There's really two ways to look at here, in terms of success and in terms of numbers. Great teammates have an affect on both. Kobe's numbers probably stand to improve more than Jordan's or Lebron's if the supporting casts were equalized.

  8. #83
    You're welcome Yao Ming's Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
    Exactly. Funny how Kobe talks about numbers, yet fails to mention he took MORE shots than Shaq.

    2000-01, FGA: Kobe-22.2, Shaq-19.2
    2001-02, FGA: Kobe-20, Shaq-18.3
    2002-03, FGA: Kobe-23.5, Shaq-18.1
    2003-04, FGA: Kobe-18.1, Shaq-14.1

    Bean was a second option in '99, and '99-00. In '98, he was more like a third or fourth option, and in '96-97, Kobe was more like a seventh option. There's a reason for that. He wasn't that great coming out of highschool AND had to earn the right to lead the way offensively.
    You don't think usage % would be the much more logical statistic to look at for the point you are trying to make?

    Shaq getting hacked doesn't show up as a shot attempt in a box score but it certainly impacts his teammates raw scoring totals.

  9. #84
    NBA Legend kuniva_dAMiGhTy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by DatAsh
    There's really two ways to look at here, in terms of success and in terms of numbers. Great teammates have an affect on both. Kobe's numbers would probably stand to improve more than Jordan's or Lebron's if the supporting casts were equalized.
    Well, it also shows that whether or not Shaq was on his team, Kobe was gonna put up 20+ shots a season. So Shaq wasn't taking shots away from him. If anything, having him on his team really helped, because the defense would often collapse on Shaq (giving more and better looks to the other Lakers).

    I don't really buy that all of the "Kobe's stats would have been better if Shaq wasn't on the team" stuff. He would have scored more, but probably less efficiently. That's about it.

  10. #85
    Local High School Star DatAsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
    I don't really buy that all of the "Kobe's stats would have been better if Shaq wasn't on the team" stuff. He would have scored more, but probably less efficiently. That's about it.
    I think you're correct in thinking that his ppg would go up while his efficiency would go down. His rebounds might also go up a bit.

    The biggest difference would be that he probably would have had to carry a bigger offensive load in the late 90's. Without Shaq there to run the offense through, the shots would have to be distributed more evenly, and Kobe would probably be one of the players most affected by that.

  11. #86
    Big Booty Hoes!! NumberSix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by DatAsh
    I think his point was that he spent all but a couple years of his career surrounded by great players. Jordan spent almost half his career on bad to mediocre teams which possibly inflated his stats a bit.

    There's really two ways to look at here, in terms of success and in terms of numbers. Great teammates have an affect on both. Kobe's numbers probably stand to improve more than Jordan's or Lebron's if the supporting casts were equalized.
    Context matters. If Kobe spent like 8 seasons on a non-contender he could have put up 5 or 6 35+ PPG seasons.

    If MJ came into the league playing with an already established superstar dominant center, his scoring numbers would be drastically decreased.

    You could also say though, that although MJs numbers would be lower, he might have started winning championships earlier.

    This is why it's stupid to judge players with blanket criteria. Every player has completely different circumstances.

  12. #87
    Local High School Star DatAsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by NumberSix
    Context matters. If Kobe spent like 8 seasons on a non-contender he could have put up 5 or 6 35+ PPG seasons.

    If MJ came into the league playing with an already established superstar dominant center, his scoring numbers would be drastically decreased.

    You could also say though, that although MJs numbers would be lower, he might have started winning championships earlier.

    This is why it's stupid to judge players with blanket criteria. Every player has completely different circumstances.
    I don't disagree, but I was speaking strictly to the numbers side of things.

  13. #88
    Dishonest, awful excuse of a fan cotdt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    Kobe started off the bench and that really hurt his stats. He has had to earn his way through. The only modern day equivalent would be James Harden. Now all the best players are from #1 pick, they get teams built around them from the onset and are crowned the franchise player before they even play a game.

  14. #89
    Gawdbe GOATsol Nashty Scholar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Levity
    "It does bother me that during your career, everyone says, 'Win championships.' Now, at the end of your career, they want to look at [individual] numbers. That drives me crazy a little."

    great quote.
    Agreed.

  15. #90
    Good college starter Rubio2Gasol's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kobe Bryant on Michael Jordan, LeBron, winning championships, etc

    I think Kobe doesn't care about stats and it annoys him that other people do. I find myself in the same position quite often

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