Would Bosh Play Better With Durant?

[3ball]

24/12 without Lebron.

16/6 with Lebron.

You do the math

Unfortunately for Lebron, his style craters the stats and performance of PF's, specifically because he dominates the ball like a point guard from the SF position (which is supremely suboptimal and puts ceiling on any team he's on).. Otoh, the stats prove that durant dominates the ball 28% less, so we know bosh would have the ball a lot more playing alongside durant.

you ****ing imbecile

Due to Lebron's collusion, his #3 option was far better than anything OKC had - Lebron's #3 option was 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player in Bosh.. Bosh is EASILY the best #3 option in the league today, and one of the best #3 options of all time.

Throw in Ray Allen (literally, the GOAT shooter) and you have one of the most talented rosters of all time... all due to Lebron's collusion.

So it's better to accept reality - Lebron colluded for his rings, which anyone can do - this is a fact - put ANYONE with enough talent, and they win rings.. but if you want to give lebron props for this - go ahead - it's a free country.

[aj1987]

24/12 without Lebron.

16/6 with Lebron.

You do the math

Last season, Bosh averaged 21 PPG while taking 5 more shots and 2 FT's more than the previous season. +5 PPG with +5 FGA and +2 FTA. Isn't that something which happens when a player taking ~20 shots a game leaves the team or are you just too retarded to understand that?

Unfortunately for Lebron, his style craters the stats and performance of PF's, specifically because he dominates the ball like a point guard from the SF position (which is supremely suboptimal and puts ceiling on any team he's on).. Otoh, the stats prove that durant dominates the ball 28% less, so we know bosh would have the ball a lot more playing alongside durant.

What in the actual **** are you even babbling about, moron? LeBron took significantly worse teams than the '12 Thunder to the Finals.

Due to Lebron's collusion, his #3 option was far better than anything OKC had - Lebron's #3 option was 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player in Bosh.. Bosh is EASILY the best #3 option in the league today, and one of the best #3 options of all time.

Throw in Ray Allen (literally, the GOAT shooter) and you have one of the most talented rosters of all time... all due to Lebron's collusion.

So it's better to accept reality - Lebron colluded for his rings, which anyone can do - this is a fact - put ANYONE with enough talent, and they win rings.. but if you want to give lebron props for this - go ahead - it's a free country.

Are you going to pretend that MJ didn't have any help? Dude basically had some of the most stacked teams in history. No wonder he went 6/6. KAJ? Shaq? Duncan? Bird?

If you actually know anything about basketball or its history almost every ATG has had stacked AF teams when they won their rings (relative to their competition). You can keep crying about stacked teams all you want or collusion or whatever, but it doesn't change the FACT that LeBron is one of the greatest ever.

Are people just being dense? Wade was injured in '12, '13, and '14. Bosh was injured in '12. To that guy who said Bosh doesn't play in the post anymore because of LeBron, Bosh himself said that he doesn't want to play in the post anymore. That he's done "banging in the post". Oh, and 85% of Bosh's shots were jumpshots in '14. 80% in '15. A 5% difference with and without LeBron.

In the 4 years Bosh played with LeBron, he took 13 shots a game in 34 MPG. In the 7 years before that, he took 14.4 shots a game in 37 MPG. A difference of 1.4 FGA while playing with LeBron AND Wade. 20.2/9.4 to 17.3/7.4. Lets all stop pretending that Bosh is anything more than a soft ass jump shooter.

Also, stop acting like Wade's knees with be '09-'11 level if he plays with anyone else. As good as Wade was in the '13 RS, he sucked ass in the first 3 rounds. Wasn't that good in '14 either.

Bosh isn't going to become tougher, Wade's knees aren't gonna heal, or Shitmers isn't gonna gain 50 IQ points just by playing with someone else.

In short, Bosh's PPG dropped a whooping 3 points along with 3 MPG. This for a guy playing along side two players who need over 15 shots a game is pretty good. Not to mention his shot attempts dropped by a marginal amount as well, while going from being the #1 option to the #3 option.

Here's Bosh saying that he doesn't like playing in the post.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-...t-bang-anymore

[3ball]

Are you trying to pretend MJ didn't have any help?

All of the Bulls' championship teams required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer and clutch player the game's ever seen.

Accordingly, MJ had the least offensive help of any superstar in the history of the game - no other player was required to carry the offensive burden that MJ carried.. The stats are what they are.. And we're also talking about one of the best defensive players of all time - he's in the top group of wing defenders along with Detroit's Rodman, Payton, Pippen, and Moncrief.

Here's Bosh saying that he doesn't like playing in the post.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-...t-bang-anymore

It has nothing to do with whether Bosh likes to play in the post or not - Bosh doesn't get enough TOUCHES alongside Lebron - Bosh doesn't get to touch the ball because Lebron is dominating it.

Again, the stats show that Durant dominates the ball 28% less, so we know bosh would have the ball a lot more playing alongside durant.

[aj1987]

All of the Bulls' championship teams required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer and clutch player the game's ever seen.

Accordingly, MJ had the least offensive help of any superstar in the history of the game - no other player was required to carry the offensive burden that MJ carried.. The stats are what they are.. And we're also talking about one of the best defensive players of all time - he's in the top group of wing defenders along with Detroit's Rodman, Payton, Pippen, and Moncrief.

Two of those ATG defenders were on his teams.

BTW, LeBron led the Heat in scoring, rebounds, and assists.

It has nothing to do with whether Bosh likes to play in the post or not - Bosh doesn't get enough TOUCHES alongside Lebron - Bosh doesn't get to touch the ball because Lebron is dominating it.

From my earlier post since you obviously have the attention span of a fruit fly.

In the 4 years Bosh played with LeBron, he took 13 shots a game in 34 MPG. In the 7 years before that, he took 14.4 shots a game in 37 MPG. A difference of 1.4 FGA while playing with LeBron AND Wade. 20.2/9.4 to 17.3/7.4. Lets all stop pretending that Bosh is anything more than a soft ass jump shooter.

Last season, Bosh averaged 21 PPG while taking 5 more shots and 2 FT's more than the previous season. +5 PPG with +5 FGA and +2 FTA. Isn't that something which happens when a player taking ~20 shots a game leaves the team or are you just too retarded to understand that?

Again, the stats show that Durant dominates the ball 28% less, so we know bosh would have the ball a lot more playing alongside durant.

So, KD is going to give up ~5 of his shots to Bosh? You do realize that LeBron took like 17 shots a game in '14, right? Weren't you the little turd who wanted him to take more shots?

[3ball]

BTW, LeBron led the Heat in scoring, rebounds, and assists.

MJ led his team in PTS, AST, STL, BLK.. Nanny Nanny Boo Boo

But who cares.. As the #1 option, scoring and clutch are the most important things Lebron and MJ do.. and Lebron's nowhere near MJ in these areas..

Thru the same age Lebron is now (30), MJ carried a 25% greater scoring load in the playoffs, and almost 50% greater scoring load in the Finals (35 PPG to 28 PPG playoff average and 36 PPG to 26 PPG Finals average thru 30 years old).. And infinitely more clutch.. We all know how big that gap is in that area.

So, KD is going to give up ~5 of his shots to Bosh?

Durant's shot volume wouldn't decline at all - not sure where you got that from - he simply dominates the ball less, allowing Bosh to have the ball MORE.

You do realize that LeBron took like 17 shots a game in '14, right?

That's why they got blown away in 2014 Finals - with Lebron dominating the ball, he took touches away from teammates - but he neglected to make up for that by shooting himself!!

Hence, the Heat couldn't produce enough to keep up with the Spurs.. He obviously learned his lesson this year by literally DOUBLING his shot total.. Of course, at the higher shot volume, his FG% plummeted..

And the Warriors exploited his horrible isolation ability and horrible 33% isolation field goal percentage by LETTING him isolate all alone on the strongside without double-teaming.. They exploited his 33% isolation FG% by letting him do it over and over, similar to how teams exploit Deandre's FTs with hack-a-jordan.. this was like lettalebron iso.
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[Kvnzhangyay]

MJ led his team in PTS, AST, STL, BLK.. Nanny Nanny Boo Boo

But who cares.. As the #1 option, scoring and clutch are the most important things Lebron and MJ do.. and Lebron's nowhere near MJ in these areas..

Thru the same age Lebron is now (30), MJ carried a 25% greater scoring load in the playoffs, and almost 50% greater scoring load in the Finals (35 PPG to 28 PPG playoff average and 36 PPG to 26 PPG Finals average thru 30 years old).. And infinitely more clutch.. We all know how big that gap is in that area.



Durant's shot volume wouldn't decline at all - not sure where you got that from - he simply dominates the ball less, allowing Bosh to have the ball MORE.



That's why they got blown away in 2014 Finals - with Lebron dominating the ball, he took touches away from teammates - but he neglected to make up for that by shooting himself!!

Hence, the Heat couldn't produce enough to keep up with the Spurs.. He obviously learned his lesson this year by literally DOUBLING his shot total..

... If he only shot 17 times a game, that obviously means his team wasn't contributing because he must be passing a lot. And don't give me BS about how his teammates had to shoot bailout shots because that simply wasn't true; Lebron was super hesitant that year (obviously for worse, but still) and stayed on the perimeter a lot, meaning he passed similar to how a PG normally passes when he brings the ball up

[3ball]

... If he only shot 17 times a game, that obviously means his team wasn't contributing because he must be passing a lot. And don't give me BS about how his teammates had to shoot bailout shots because that simply wasn't true; Lebron was super hesitant that year (obviously for worse, but still) and stayed on the perimeter a lot, meaning he passed similar to how a PG normally passes when he brings the ball up

Let's face it..

Lebron's options are:

A) shoot 17 times per game, protect efficiency, and get beat in record fashion

B) shoot 35 times per game, but only get 35 points because an unsophisticated offensive repertoire prevents him from maintaining his FG% at the higher volume.


As you can see, he's ****ed.. Unfortunately, option C is not an option for Lebron:

C) have the offensive sophistication of MJ, enabling him to maintain his efficiency at the higher volume, and preventing a Game 4 choke of 20 points with 0 in 4th (oh wait, that last part was due to him being "gassed"... but he cramped up in 2014 too, so yeah, stamina issues play.. bigtime )
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[Kvnzhangyay]

Let's face it..

Lebron's options are:

A) shoot 17 times per game, protect efficiency, and get beat in record fashion

B) shoot 35 times per game, but only get 35 points because an unsophisticated offensive repertoire prevents him from maintaining his FG% at the higher volume.


As you can see, option C is not an option for Lebron:

C) have the offensive sophistication of MJ, enabling him to maintain his efficiency at the higher volume, and preventing a Game 4 choke of 20 points with 0 in 4th (oh wait, that last part is a stamina issue.. but yeah, that plays too)

I'm not questioning that Lebron SHOULD have shot more shots, in HINDSIGHT

Also, if we want to talk about such hypotheticals, Lebron last year was somehow a much better shooter than this year in the finals, as shown by the differing 3 point %. In 2014, Lebron shot 51.9% on threes, and in 2015 Lebron shot 31%, so he without a doubt would have averaged much more than 35ppg

HOWEVER, that is not the point, as I'm saying that even if he shot so many shots, even hypothetically at the same efficiency, the Heat would still have lost, as the Spurs were just simply that dominant. The Spurs were a beauty to watch last year, the way they played perfect team basketball and shot lights out in the finals.

[3ball]

I'm saying that even if he shot so many shots, even hypothetically at the same efficiency, the Heat would still have lost,

Unbelievable horseshit.. If he DOUBLED his shot attempts in 2014 like he did in 2015, it makes a massive difference, especially with a better supporting cast.

We saw how his higher volume controlled pace and had a better impact against a better team (the Warriors) in these latest Finals.. And if he did that in Miami with a better supporting cast, they win EASILY.

However, Lebron's remaining problem is that he can't maintain his efficiency at the higher volume - in the 2015 Finals, we found out that he shoots 39.8% at the higher volume, even against single coverage all alone... So he still would've lost, but only because he couldn't maintain his FG% at the higher volume.

Unfortunately he simply doesn't have the offensive sophistication or the stamina to maintain his efficiency at the higher volume.. The picture of him cramping up in 2014 is memorable.. And of course, he was "gassed" is the critical Game 4 of 2015 Finals, which cost his team the chance to go up 3-1 and win the series.

[aj1987]

MJ led his team in PTS, AST, STL, BLK.. Nanny Nanny Boo Boo

Making shit up, huh?

1991 - Points, assists, and blocks.
1992 - Points ans steals.
1993 - Points and assists.
1996 - Points.
1997 - Points, assists, and steals.
1998 - Points.

Pippen usually led the team in assists, steals, and blocks. LeBron obviously doesn't have as many rings or Finals appearances as MJ, but from the ones he has:

2007 - Points, assists, and steals.
2011 - Rebounds, assists, and steals.
2012 - Points, rebounds, assists, and steals.
2013 - Points, rebounds, assists, and steals.
2014 - Points, rebounds, assists, and steals.
2015 - Points, rebounds, assists, and steals.

But who cares.. As the #1 option, scoring and clutch are the most important things Lebron and MJ do.. and Lebron's nowhere near MJ in these areas..

Where did I say LeBron was better than MJ in the clutch or scoring? Dumb ****.

Durant's shot volume wouldn't decline at all - not sure where you got that from - he simply dominates the ball less, allowing Bosh to have the ball MORE.

The Thunder average ~82 FGA's a game.
KD - 20
WB - 20
Bosh - 17
Ibaka - 13

That's 70 shots right there for the starting 4. The rest of the team gets ~12 shots a game? Do you think that's how basketball works? You think '87 MJ is going to get 28 shots a game on the '11-'14 Heat?

That's why they got blown away in 2014 Finals - with Lebron dominating the ball, he took touches away from teammates - but he neglected to make up for that by shooting himself!!

They lost because of their defense. Literally anyone who saw the series can tell you that. Basketball Reference doesn't keep those stats yet.

However, Lebron's remaining problem is that he can't maintain his efficiency at the higher volume - in the 2015 Finals, we found out that he shoots 39.8% at the higher volume, even against single coverage all alone... So he still would've lost, but only because he couldn't maintain his FG% at the higher volume.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...cavaliers.html

Stop posting, kid. You're just embarrassing yourself.

[Kvnzhangyay]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...cavaliers.html

Stop posting, kid. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Lets take a moment to honor Dwight shooting 70% on FTs

[3ball]

Where did I say LeBron was better than MJ in the clutch or scoring?

As the #1 option, scoring and clutch are the most important things Lebron and MJ do.. and Lebron's nowhere near MJ in these areas..

Thru the same age Lebron is now (30), MJ carried a 25% greater scoring load in the playoffs, and almost 50% greater scoring load in the Finals (35 PPG to 28 PPG in playoffs and 36 PPG to 26 PPG in Finals thru 30 years old).. And infinitely more clutch.. We all know how big that gap is in that area.

You think '87 MJ is going to get 28 shots a game on the '11-'14 Heat?

MJ played off-ball - this allowed teammates to touch the ball more and maintain their averages alongside MJ - just look at Pippen and Kukoc in 1996 when MJ came back from baseball - their stats barely changed.. This is a far cry from what Lebron's ball-dominance does to Bosh and Love's stats.

Btw, MJ averaged 25.1 shots per game for his playoff career as a Bull, with MANY series where he shot 27-33 times per game.. Lebron only attempts 19.0 shot attempts for his career in the playoffs...

Of course, MJ's teams actually WON the crucial games, whereas Lebron literally blows his opportunities... i.e. MJ would never score 20 points in any Finals game, or have 0 in the 4th - but that's what Lebron did when he had a chance to go up 3-1 in Game 4.

Remember that??.. Lebron was "gassed" in Game 4 - that was his actual reason for blowing the opportunity from his own mouth... And last year he cramped up in Game 1.. Lebron doesn't have the stamina OR the offensive sophistication to maintain his FG% at a higher shooting volume.

The Heat lost because of their defense in 2014 Finals

That's the dumb mainstream narrative - the stats show the Heat's offense was the worst of any Spurs opponent that year.. Basketball-reference shows us that pretty clearly - the Heat offense was inept, mainly because Lebron only shot 17 times per game despite his team needing 30.

If Lebron shot more in 2014, he could've controlled pace like he did against the Warriors, and the Warriors are a better team - that's how effective a high volume can be at controlling pace.

Also, the Heat had far better supporting talent than the injured Cavs, so the Heat would've been controlling pace with better talent (than this year's Cavs) against a worse team (than last year's Spurs).. Don't underestimate the difference between attempting 17 shots and attemting twice as many.

Of course, even if he does shoot 34 times per game, the 2015 Finals showed us Lebron will only shoot 39.8%, even against single-coverage the entire series.. he simply doesn't have the offensive sophistication or the stamina to maintain his efficiency at the higher volume

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...cavaliers.html

LOL, are you serious kid?... Go back to school.. Lebron only attempted 25 shots per game in that series - nowhere NEAR the 34 he attempted against the Warriors.. 34 > 25... by a LOT.

Again, Lebron simply doesn't have the offensive sophistication or the stamina to maintain his efficiency at the higher volume
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[aj1987]

That's the dumb mainstream narrative - the stats show the Heat's offense was the worst of any Spurs opponent that year.. Basketball-reference shows us that pretty clearly - the Heat offense was inept, mainly because Lebron only shot 17 times per game despite his team needing 30.

If Lebron shot more in 2014, he could've controlled pace like he did against the Warriors, and the Warriors are a better team - that's how effective a high volume can be at controlling pace.

Yep. You haven't EVER watched a SINGLE game of basketball in your life. I'm done here. Try actually watching a game. You might even enjoy it. Do do show a shit ton of stats during games.

[3ball]

Yep. You haven't EVER watched a SINGLE game of basketball in your life. I'm done here. Try actually watching a game. You might even enjoy it. Do do show a shit ton of stats during games.

Heat scored BY FAR the least points vs. the Spurs of any Spurs opponent.

So again, basketball-reference shows the Heat had the worst offense of any Spurs opponent.. Not sure why you lost your shit like that.
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[aj1987]

Heat had the lowest ORtg vs. the Spurs of any Spurs opponent.

No shit, Sherlock. The '14 Heat outside LeBron wasn't that good.