top 5 two way players in nba history ( aka the real top 5 players in nba history )

[kennethgriffen]

Michael Jordan ( 10 time all nba 1st team, 9 time all defensive 1st team, 1 time defensive player of the year )

Kareem Abdul Jabbar ( 10 time all nba 1st team, 5 time all defensive 1st team )

Kobe Bryant ( 11 time all nba 1st team, 9 time all defensive 1st team )

Tim Duncan ( 10 time all nba 1st team, 8 time all defensive 1st team )

Hakeem Olajuwon ( 6 time all nba 1st team, 5 time all defensive 1st team, 2 time defensive player of the year )



should this be the real top 5?


defense IS a thing right?

why do we give guys like magic/lebron a pass for not playing any defense whatsoever and russell a pass for not dominating offensively


...

[SouBeachTalents]

Wilt needs to be included

[kennethgriffen]

Wilt needs to be included

sorry... its the no chokers club

winning finals records only

[SouBeachTalents]

sorry... its the no chokers club

winning finals records only

He won as many titles as Hakeem, it's dumb to punish him for making 3 additional Finals

[kennethgriffen]

He won as many titles as Hakeem, it's dumb to punish him for making 3 additional Finals

nobodies punishing him for making additional finals

we punish him for going from like 30ppg down to 15ppg in the playoffs/finals and totally disappearing on more than one occasion basically the same as lebron did vs the mavs in 2011

[3ball]

sorry... its the no chokers club

winning finals records only

[Big164]

Old Wilt was considered a better Defensive player than Peak Kareem when they both played in the same league. Shat thread...

[Rico2016]

So Kobe plays better defense than LeBron now. Interesting news to me

Not so fast bucko

[72-10]

Pretty solid list.

I don't have much doubt that these are the nine on the top tier of greatest two-way players in the game's history, and I have tried to order them.

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Jerry West
David Robinson
Kevin Garnett

[Manny98]

LeBron was a DPOY runner up twice let's not act like he never played defense

[72-10]

as for Magic, can't ignore his ridiculous steals rate in the first half of his career like it's nothing. He also blocked shots then, though his height probably helped here.

btw Bird was a good help defender

[SamuraiSWISH]

as for Magic, can't ignore his ridiculous steals rate in the first half of his career like it's nothing. He also blocked shots then, though his height probably helped here.

btw Bird was a good help defender

Bird was a better defender than Magic, period.

[Kblaze8855]

At this point anyone who still goes on the Wilt finals/playoffs PPG drop who doesnt acknowledge he made most of his deep playoff runs(5 of his 6 finals) when he made an effort not to score but instead win with defense is either trolling or so misinformed they shouldnt be talking about the issue to begin with.

Like choking is the reason you score less when you take 6 shots a game(in 47 minutes a night) in the playoffs than in seasons you took 32 a game.....

108 of his 160 playoff games were after he made an effort to play like Russell and win off defense, rebounding, and outlet passing. Outside those seasons hes #1 or #2 all time in playoff ppg with Jordan. I think Jordan would be #1 but I dont remember for sure. And even in those seasons a huge number of his playoff games were vs the Celtics who had to that point(and for some time to come) the best defensive front court in history.

Anyway...the issue with all D teams has always been the same. Star bias and not giving credit to guys who only play D. Chris Paul and Lebron both have more all D first teams than Tony Allen. They get the "He has to do so much...." credit though. Lebron and Kobe were all NBA first team over Tony Allen and Iggy on second in 2011. Im not so sure about that. Iggy only made 2 teams total. Doesnt mean the people who made more are better defenders....especially with the lax rules that dont even have the same number of players each year(Some years 6 people make the first team..or different numbers of positions).

From what ive seen/accept id go with

Payton with honorable mention to Frazier with both having the offensive edge on DJ
Jordan with honorable mention to Kobe for his early work
Pippen(Bobby Jones not doing much on offense...Leonard also having a case..Hondo also gets a mention)
KG/Tim no argument from me over who you choose

Center you could go a few ways but Wilt is in the discussion no doubt.

Gonna do it just off all D first teams of people who also are elite on offense Lebron goes over Pippen. Lebron has the 3rd most all d picks of any 3. Doesnt make him the 3rd best defender.

Pippen was to me as good on offense as Lebron on D...meaning...really good...but not all time elite. But you could argue Pippen as closer to the GOAT defender than Lebron to the GOAT offensive player. I dont think either is the case...but I think Pippen has a better case to make. Limit it to position its even easier.

[tpols]

you also have to consider wilt played a huge proportion of his playoff minutes versus bill russell.. and to a lesser extent KAJ. since there were less teams, and playoff rounds wilt was absolutely constantly seeing HOF centers better than any today. Imagine if lebron saw tim duncan every round instead of all the filler he saw every year in the east, thats like 80% of his playoff games... wilt had it much tougher.

[kennethgriffen]

as for Magic, can't ignore his ridiculous steals rate in the first half of his career like it's nothing. He also blocked shots then, though his height probably helped here.

btw Bird was a good help defender

90% of steals and blocks by non post players are actually attained by NOT playing defense and instead leaking out for chase downs/playing passing lanes etc...

its why most people were tricked into thinking a younger lebron was a DPOTY candidate. later when they actually watched his finals defense exposed highlight compilations they realized the truth