View Single Post
Old 05-06-2013, 12:14 AM   #432
Now a Cavs fan again
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,079
Default Re: Truth: LeBron James is already the greatest SF in NBA history

Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Everything you say I would have most likely agreed with prior to the 11 Finals.

But the 11 Finals happened. So all of that..."just give Lebron a quality team and he'll win you the title" talk...and I was a part of it mind you...goes out the window because of his epic failure and epic collapse.
It was an uncharacteristically sub-par performance that happened to occur in the Finals and is therefore blown way out of proportion. Calling is an “epic collapse” and “epic failure” is gross hyperbole, unless you’re willing to call out these other players who are supposedly ahead of or equal to LeBron for their epic chokes:

Larry Bird 1985 Finals – shot a putrid 44.9 FG%
Larry Bird 1987 Finals – shot a putrid 44.5 FG%
(keep in mind 80’s average FG% was way, way higher so a sub 45 FG% back then is low 40 FG% today)

Magic Johnson 1983 Finals – shot a horrendous 40.3 FG% en route to being swept 4-0
Magic Johnson 1984 Finals – earned him the nickname “Tragic” Johnson
Magic Johnson 1991 Finals – again shot a very bad 43 FG%

Kobe Bryant 2000 Finals – 36.7 FG%
Kobe Bryant 2001 Finals – 41.5 FG%
Kobe Bryant 2004 Finals – 38.1 FG% and chucked his HOF-studded super team to a loss against a team with no superstar
Kobe Bryant 2008 Finals – 40 FG%
(and then of course there’s the 6-24 in Game 7 of 2010, which will unfortunately be forgotten in history because the Lakers won)

So yeah, you and others blow 2011 way out of proportion. I’m not even going to bother looking up chokes by Wilt, Kareem, etc but I’m sure they had plenty. Honestly, it’s just one bad series for LeBron.

I can ignore the 07 finals because his team just wasn't good. Had a poor coach..etc. I can even ignore his meltdown in 2010 for the same reasons.

But nothing can be ignored about 2011
Yeah, 2007 should be ignored because the team had lottery level talent and yet by some miracle managed to beat Detroit and make the Finals. That itself is an accomplishment basically nobody in the top 10 has.

So you can talk all you want about what Lebron would do in the 80's etc. All I know is that Lebron has to show us what he can do with the clear cut best team in the league in the heart of his prime right now.

And so far, the results are mixed. Last year was great...year before was a disaster of epic proportions that no other star in NBA history in the top 10 ever did. Only Kobe in the 04 finals even compares...and even then, Kobe's play was better.
Well, in 2012 he redeemed himself. Wade was banged up and nowhere near as dominant as he was in the 2011 playoffs. Bosh didn’t even play the second round and half the ECF. So bringing up 2011 is pretty irrelevant, especially if we’re going to act like it was any worse than the chokes of Bird, Wilt, Magic, Kareem and Kobe.

I just pointed out several players in the top 10 who had not just one, but multiple chokes that were worse. And besides hitting that game-tying three in Game 2, nothing about Kobe’s play in 2004 was better. He jacked his team out of every game.

Yes, Lebron has a long way to go...not in terms of as a player...but his accomplishments. He has to put it all together the way a guy like Duncan has. Duncan has been playing great ball his entire career and has won 4 titles. Like I said before, I need to see Lebron get 3 before I move him even with or ahead of Duncan.

Why do you act like that is unreasonable? Duncan, in the heart of his prime, would already have for sure 2 titles playing with the Heat in 11 and 12. That can't even be debated. So I need to see Lebron do a bit more. If he had won in 11 this would be a different discussion and I'd probably have him even with Duncan at this point.
It’s unreasonable because Duncan just wasn’t as dominant as LeBron. Your only criteria when comparing the two seems to be the number of titles won, which is absolutely important, but a flawed way of comparing a player (Duncan) who’s had a championship caliber team around him for basically his entire career to a player (LeBron) who’s had a championship caliber team around him for a total of 3 seasons. Duncan could definitely win titles with this Heat team in place of LeBron, but so what? That’s not the team he had. LeBron went to the Finals and won 66 games with pure scrubs and a dumb head coach – I have no doubt he’d win several titles playing with Parker/Ginobili and with one of the all-time greatest coaches in Popovich.

But we can't just ignore the biggest meltdown by a great player in NBA history.

Comparing it to what Bird or Magic or some of the other players did is just pathetically dishonest.
Again, no. What’s being dishonest is acting like one bad Finals series is “the biggest meltdown in history.” Just call it what it was – by his standards a subpar performance. Magic and Bird had plenty. Kobe had plenty and so did others.

Right now I have Lebron as the 11th best player of all time. If he wins the title and fmvp this year. I'll probably have him as the 7th or 8th best player of all time right behind Duncan.

Do you really think that is unreasonable? If so, you should check your bias.

11th is absolutely ridiculous for a 4-time MVP winner. The accomplishment of winning 4 MVP’s puts him in a category that only Jordan, Wilt, Kareem and Russell belong to. From the rankings I’ve seen, all of them are considered unquestionably top-5 all time players. Nobody ranks Wilt “7th or 8th best player of all time” so putting LeBron (who will have literally the same accomplishments and did it in a much tougher era) in that range is way underrating him. Like I said, top 2 all-time after another Finals MVP. I’ll maybe say I’d be ok with people putting him as low as #4 all-time if they want to continue overrating past players who were clearly inferior to LeBron just because they played in the past.

Last edited by 2010splash : 05-06-2013 at 12:17 AM.
2010splash is offline   Reply With Quote