Originally Posted by 2010splash
If “done enough” is another way of saying “hasn’t had a championship team for long enough like all these other players we’re comparing him to”, then I agree with you. The argument is so ridiculous. If LeBron was drafted onto the 1980 Lakers or 1980 Celtics and in his rookie year or by his second season had a championship cast surrounding him, his career resume would currently be second only to Jordan – at age 28. If he was drafted onto a team with prime Shaq, he’d have 5 titles by now. Or if he played with the equivalent of a prime Penny, prime Kobe, or prime Wade for his entire career, he’d have more titles than Shaq as well.
Not really. If that’s the case, we cannot overlook Magic, Kobe and Bird’s massive playoff chokes as well. Those are permanent stains on their legacies as well. When LeBron wins Finals MVP this year, he vaults to #2 all-time and second to only Jordan. Comparing him to Kobe and Hakeem is just idiotic. Hakeem with 2 titles (same as LeBron) and 3 less MVP’s? Kobe with 2 titles as top dog (though poor Finals showings) and 3 as second fiddle to Shaq and only 1 MVP? No, just no. LeBron basically accomplished what Wilt did at just age 28 – 4 MVP’s and 2 rings, except he was much more influential in his second ring than Wilt was in his 1972 title.
Bringing up 2007 is actually an argument in favor of LeBron. No other player at age 22 has led such a pathetic trash team worth maybe 20 wins to the Finals. They shouldn’t have even gotten past the conference Finals. The Pistons were a far, far, far more talented team. You keep rehashing the same 2011 thing over and over again as if anyone cares. Again, if one Finals series has such an influence on a player’s legacy, then guys like Kobe, Bird, Kareem, Wilt and Magic are far greater chokers and should be bumped way down on everyone’s rankings.
Everything you say I would have most likely agreed with prior to the 11 Finals.
But the 11 Finals happened. So all of that..."just give Lebron a quality team and he'll win you the title" talk...and I was a part of it mind you...goes out the window because of his epic failure and epic collapse.
I can ignore the 07 finals because his team just wasn't good. Had a poor coach..etc. I can even ignore his meltdown in 2010 for the same reasons.
But nothing can be ignored about 2011.
So you can talk all you want about what Lebron would do in the 80's etc. All I know is that Lebron has to show us what he can do with the clear cut best team in the league in the heart of his prime right now.
And so far, the results are mixed. Last year was great...year before was a disaster of epic proportions that no other star in NBA history in the top 10 ever did. Only Kobe in the 04 finals even compares...and even then, Kobe's play was better.
Yes, Lebron has a long way to go...not in terms of as a player...but his accomplishments. He has to put it all together the way a guy like Duncan has. Duncan has been playing great ball his entire career and has won 4 titles. Like I said before, I need to see Lebron get 3 before I move him even with or ahead of Duncan.
Why do you act like that is unreasonable? Duncan, in the heart of his prime, would already have for sure 2 titles playing with the Heat in 11 and 12. That can't even be debated. So I need to see Lebron do a bit more. If he had won in 11 this would be a different discussion and I'd probably have him even with Duncan at this point.
But we can't just ignore the biggest meltdown by a great player in NBA history.
Comparing it to what Bird or Magic or some of the other players did is just pathetically dishonest.
Right now I have Lebron as the 11th best player of all time. If he wins the title and fmvp this year. I'll probably have him as the 7th or 8th best player of all time right behind Duncan.
Do you really think that is unreasonable? If so, you should check your bias.