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Old 03-16-2013, 01:23 AM   #78
Whoah10115
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Default Re: Magic Johnson averaged a triple double over his 1st 4 playoff runs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I wasn't claiming he was DPOY level in '82, but it's obvious from most '82 Laker games that he made a positive impact. He blocked and altered a ton of shots around the rim. His presence was definitely felt defensively. Magic has never been much of a defender, imo. Pretty good help defender, but he would gamble at times, and his roaming made him very vulnerable vs shooters. Of course, he had trouble with players who could score off the dribble as well.


I'm not saying Kareem's defensive impact wasn't more positive than negative, I am saying that it wasn't noteworthy. Magic was a good defender and never one of the great ones. But Kareem's defense wasn't any better. And if big man defense is really as important as people suggest then I'd claim his defense was worse than Magic. Kareem's timing was always terrific. His entire skillset was incredible, but he was lazy. For him to be that lazy outside the paint and to still be so soft under the rim is just inexcusable. He was soft and he was lazy. Shaq guarded the pick n' roll more than Kareem did. Watching Duncan yesterday, Barkley marveled at how Duncan plays like a big man. His hands always up and yet always active. Kareem would raise his arms, with the same fundamentals, but without any of the fire. He just didn't play hard on that side of the ball...and he still couldn't get as many rebounds as Magic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
The Lakers were Kareem's team until '87. Both Riley and Magic have said this. Though you could argue Magic was the better player a few years prior to that, though even in the mid 80's with Kareem in his late 30's, those 2 were pretty much 1.A/1.B.


The Lakers were Kareem's team until Game 6 in 1980. All I can go by are the games and not only was Magic the best player in most of those games but he was always the guy with the game in his hands. In every playoff from there on, you watched Magic and the Lakers. From hearing and reading Riley and Magic's comments about the basketball being played, the only reasonable explanation is they were showing reverence to Cap.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I've seen those playoff games, and other than people going nuts over the triple double stats, it's confusing to me how people think Magic was already better. Even in the finals when Kareem's numbers were way down, he still looked like the finals MVP to me.

Honestly, I think Kareem won that 1985 award because people were marveling at his age and to make up for 1980. He really had no business winning it. I think Magic rightfully won it 1980, with that missed Game 6, but I always understood how great Kareem had been up until then (especially when you consider the entire playoffs). Outside of that tho, Kareem has never been as good as Magic in a Finals series.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Magic's half court skill set just wasn't enough at that point for me to put him over Kareem. I've looked into this season extensively and Kareem was still pretty close to prime form. He had a bad midseason slump for about a month, but other than that, the biggest difference was Kareem's rebounding, and he was still average.


Hard to say Kareem is average when he is so clearly not as good as a guy who played half of the game at PG and the other half at SG/SF. Offensively, Kareem was still Kareem. He was so slow, but his skill level is astounding. Defensively, he just didn't give much of a shit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Kareem was much more important to the Laker defense than Magic, and the one Laker you had to double. He was a center, but he was also the guy they went to for big shots down the stretch. I've read quotes from players that year who said when Kareem was out, you could go inside on the Lakers, and how when he was not in the lineup, you could play the Lakers without double-teaming.


You're right on him double-teaming. I also think he had the benefit of having a better player to kick it out to. Without a guy as good as Magic (or Bird, if it was Bird on the Lakers) he would have to work thru those double-teams a lot more. And by that I mean he couldn't just kick it out the way he did...he would have to had to make a play a lot more frequently. I don't think you could give him Erving in place of Magic, without costing LA a title. And also, McAdoo was the only other center on the roster. He used to block some shots, but I don't remember him having a consistent defensive paint presence. And he wasn't any kind of rebounder by then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Sure, if you have a top 2-3 player in Kareem, 2 additional all-stars in Norm Nixon and Jamaal Wilkes, Bob McAdoo who played like an all-star in the playoffs coming off the bench and one of the best role players of all-time in Michael Cooper.

Well, I don't think Kareem was a top 3 player in the NBA at that time. Bird was better, Malone was better, Magic was better. And you could argue that Erving was better by then. If we're talking all-time, I think Kareem's place is well over-stated. I don't think he'd ever win another title without a guy as good as Magic. And I think Magic still wins a couple titles, if Kareem literally decided not to get off the bench in 87 and 88.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
What Lebron did for the '09 Cavs was pretty incredible.

Dwyane Wade was just as good a player as LeBron and should have been the MVP, in my opinion. You put Magic in LeBron's place and I guarantee you Orlando doesn't beat Cleveland. And I hate to keep referencing that, as it sounds as tho I'm claiming LeBron lost the series or something. But Magic would lead that team to a win. If Magic is easily the best guy on the floor and the supporting casts are comparable then Mike Brown isn't going to stop Magic from winning. And neither is SVG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
You not thinking it's remotely close is a good example of people not realizing just how historically dominant Lebron has become.


What LeBron has become...where he is the last two years (and the 2011 playoffs, prior to the Finals) is far ahead of 2009. Where he is now, I do understand. He's still not as good as Magic in his prime. Magic is the only player comparable to MJ, as far as I can see. Bird is somewhat close. James is still not there.

Last edited by Whoah10115 : 03-16-2013 at 01:29 AM.
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