Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]
the myth of Jordan's better off ball movement is borne out of the absolute absence of team and systematic defense in the 80s and early 90s
defense in those days were predicated on great personnel, not schemes or zone[/QUOTE]
Nonsense. Jordan was shitting on Kobe as an off the ball player in 2003 also at 40 years old. The so-called "greatest defensive era ever."
Kobe's off-ball game was nowhere near as good as Jordan's prior to 2007 anyway (not sure when you'd say that the "modern era" started). So a 26-28 year old Kobe didn't display anywhere near the off ball game that a 26-28 year old MJ did, or even that a 40 year old MJ did a few years prior. Give me a break. :oldlol:
Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
Jordan is 100x more clutch tho
Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
[QUOTE=Element]Lol at Jordan stans itt. I mean, I'm one myself but you guys are taking it to the extreme.
Here's what Kobe's more skilled at:
- Isolation handles. Easily. He played in the And-1 era, it comes by default.
[B]- Shot-making. Any point in denying this?[/B]
- Long-rage shooting. Higher 3P% with longer line, higher volume, worse shot selection. Lol.
Arguable:
- Footwork. Both players had GOAT level footwork.
- Post-up game. We do NOT know Jordan's post-up numbers. What we do know are Kobe's post up numbers. Chew on this: Via Synergy, he has been top 3 in post-up points per shot every year since he started implementing it (08). He has consistently shot around high 50's-60 FG% from the post.
What makes MJ's post game more "famous" is the fact that in his era, clearing a side was no biggie. As easy as making a layup in practice if you had a team like the Bulls. Dude could ISO all day. In Kobe's era however...lol. GL trying to get MJ that many post ups in today's era lol.[/QUOTE]
yes
kobe is only better at shot [B]taking[/B] but not shot [B]making[/B]. what you're seeing is just an illusion. kobe does his fancy dribbles, jukes and jives, creates space, puts up a good looking shot, but bricks. up until that point you can say that kobe is better but after that, the most important part which is actually putting the ball in the basket, jordan takes the cake.
but thats just in the midrange game. when it comes to making shots around the basket, its jordan no contest, taking and making. the hangtime, the leaners, the mid air improv, the creativity in avoiding ourstretched arms. kobe's got nothing on that.
Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
[QUOTE=f0und]yes
kobe is only better at shot [B]taking[/B] but not shot [B]making[/B]. what you're seeing is just an illusion. kobe does his fancy dribbles, jukes and jives, creates space, puts up a good looking shot, but bricks. up until that point you can say that kobe is better but after that, the most important part which is actually putting the ball in the basket, jordan takes the cake.
but thats just in the midrange game. when it comes to making shots around the basket, its jordan no contest, taking and making. the hangtime, the leaners, the mid air improv, the creativity in avoiding ourstretched arms. kobe's got nothing on that.[/QUOTE]
Shot-making is considered the art of making tough shots. No one's better at that than Kobe. MJ had more seperation on his fadeaways and jump shots due to his superior athleticisim.
This is what I'm talking about:
[URL="http://youtu.be/SpWAyV-S7P0?t=4m57s"]http://youtu.be/SpWAyV-S7P0?t=4m57s[/URL]
[URL="http://youtu.be/CwWQTGJPzzY?t=3m16s"]http://youtu.be/CwWQTGJPzzY?t=3m16s[/URL]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgwdlK06Evw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgwdlK06Evw[/URL]
I agree that MJ is clearly the better finisher, though. People went to his games to watch him pull off circus layups, not spinning fadeaways over a double team.
Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
[IMG]http://cdn29.elitedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/PEJ6H3q.gif[/IMG]
Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
He is more skilled. Jordan never did these:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-tXvMriU0Y&t=0m21s[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-tXvMriU0Y&t=4m53s[/url]
Phil said in his book Kobe is more physically flexible, so that probably has some to do with it.
and by virtue of his superior dribbling and range hes much more dynamic shooting off the dribble.
Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
[QUOTE=eliteballer]He is more skilled. Jordan never did these:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-tXvMriU0Y&t=0m21s[/url][/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo8XY-bNcPs#t=37m09s[/url]
Your second play, while nice, isn't anything great. Jordan had literally dozens of layups better than that one.
And even if your premise was correct, "flexibility" does not equal skill.
Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
That pass you posted isn't remotely comparable to the Kobe one. Kobe jumps in the air and doesn't turn his body...
and no, Jordan doesn't have dozens of layups better than that. Kobe jumps from one side of the rim to the other while turning his whole body AND keeping shooting form while dodging a defender in the air.
Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
[QUOTE=eliteballer]
and no, Jordan doesn't have dozens of layups better than that. Kobe jumps from one side of the rim to the other while turning his whole body AND keeping shooting form while dodging a defender in the air.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/michael-jordan-best-lay-up.gif[/IMG]
You're acting as if it's better than this.
Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
Kobe is my favourite player, but the only thing he is better than Jordan at is shooting, Kobe has more range, footwork is another factor that is comparable, but Jordan had great post play and footwork too, the rest, Jordan has more skill.
Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
[QUOTE=Black and White]Kobe is my favourite player, but the only thing he is better than Jordan at is shooting, Kobe has more range, footwork is another factor that is comparable, but Jordan had great post play and footwork too, the rest, Jordan has more skill.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Better ISO, "And 1" era handles. Not that MJ wasn't a great, or creative ball handler himself. He had a street style in his day too.
In 2002, and 2003 he even adopted new era dribble mechanics.
Handle, and Kobe's ability to shoot off the dribble are it in terms of being more skillful than Jordan. And possibly the long ball.
He's not more skillful. He doesn't have better footwork. He's comparable. Put in the work in the gym to have similar skills to Jordan. But anyone saying otherwise that he's better is speaking out their ass.
Kobe has a more wiry frame, smaller shoulders. MJ had superior strength, broad shoulders and hands. Also Kobe was athletic, but Jordan is at the pinnacle of the mountain when it comes to athleticism. He was quicker, faster, more durable, higher leaper etc.
Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
You'd also have to tell us what age MJ and what age Kobe you are talking about here.
1998 MJ had developed different skills than 1988 MJ.
Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
[QUOTE=eliteballer]
and by virtue of his superior dribbling and range hes much more dynamic shooting off the dribble.[/QUOTE]
I can see that! I can see an argument being made about that. I notice you didn't say better or more efficient.
But to counter that, couldn't you argue that Jordan created more space with the least amount of movement than Kobe so there was no need for MJ to do more? Jordan would take something like one or two dribbles to create enough space for him to take a shot. Kobe size up players and take several dribbles before creating enough space.
While both players could adapt well to the defense, wouldn't the most skillful player off the dribble be the one that use the least amount of movement to create the space and hit the shot with a higher %? But you can argue it was due to the quickness Jordan had that Kobe lacked.
Re: "Kobe is more skilled than Jordan"
In terms of actual basketball skills, they're on par with one another. Maybe with Kobe at a minimal advantage. But MJ is a much more superior athlete and his ball IQ is light years ahead. Kobe lasted as long as he did because of his fundamentals. Not that he's not a great athlete without a great ball IQ, but athleticism and ball IQ are two aspects that IMO only two people even match Jordan(Magic and Bird).