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-   -   *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say... (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=294027)

Kblaze8855 03-21-2013 10:07 AM

*Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
...but ill defend to the death your right to say it."

^
A quote I butchered that you may have heard(and been told that the wrong person wrote it).

In the past I have felt it was a pretty good summary of my beliefs. Not just on sports...but life in general. But lately ive really started to question the necessity of free speech. In life...but at the moment....as it relates to sports in general and the NBA in particular.

I was asked to be mod after id been here somewhere in the area of 10-11 years. Tasked mostly with limiting the free speech of those I deem unworthy of it at the moment for one reason or another. A task that went against my nature.

But...

Having thought about it...there is an awful lot that people say on places like this...that is flat out not in the best interests of society as it relates to sports and sports fans.

And freedom of speech is not limitless in the real world. Try yelling "Fire" in a packed public room and seeing what the cops have to say when you tell them you caused the resulting panic.

Freedom of speech only goes so far as common sense and the greater good allow.

So....what goes too far...just in the sports world? What...is harmful to the well being of fans as a society?

Well...probably nothing. Nothing I can compare to the safety risk of inciting a panic or....throwing out profane threats in public.

But im not talking safety...im talking...public good. NBA fan good to be specific.

And when looking at it that way...id say all of the following are so untrue that the spreading of these ideas might justify the removal of freedom of speech just for the greater good.



1. Numbers dont lie. If you need that explained...I hate you.





2. *insert superstar* is the best/worst *insert skill 70 role players are better/worse at* in the league.

Often this is....worst defensive player in the league. Im not sure its ever been true. In my time here its been said of Dirk, Lebron(while he was on a team with Damon Jones), Melo, Nash, and many others...Nash may have been closer than the rest...but it was said around 05. You watch old Sam Cassell play D and conclude Nash(who at least tried) was worse...you are an idiot.

So why is it said? People who either dont know enough or are too lazy to articulate their reasons fall back on sensationalizing bullshit. And while its never gonna do the damage that other "We cant let you say that....." issues can in the real world...I feel it and things like it have led fans down a road where only big names come up as the best and worst everything.

Which may not annoy you much but as a student of history it bugs the hell outta me. I dont claim to have any kind of innate knowledge of the game...I am just really interested in it and read/watch a lot on both the past and present.

When someone makes the case that Lebron, Melo, or Dirk are the worst defensive players in a league with Brian Cook, Sam Cassell, Damon Jones once he did nothing but shoot....and they mean it? Its mind boggling. You have to ignore so many players that the statement loses all meaning. These people are just pretending nobody but superstars exist even though the statement about being worst....is ALL about the league top to bottom.

And that superstar superstar superstar shit is part of how we get to a point where nothing gets talked about but Kobe, Lebron, and Jordan. The respect paid to the total game...the people that play it...its at an all time low. Respect paid to the biggest stars keeps going up.

Which im sure is good for business but to me is bad for fans.

In 50 years I wont be surprised if you have to make an all star team to get your name on the back of your jersey. Be a bunch of guys known by their numbers playing with 1-2 stars with their names on the front and back of the jersey.

With the exception of passing im not sure a true superstar has been the best in the league at anything in years.

Maybe you could say Pierce or Kobe were the best at making contested pullup jumpers? Something like that.

But ball handling? Shot blocking? Rebounding? Shooting? Most of the game really. Big names jump out but....eh. Not many points are better ball handlers than Jamal Tinsley or a dozen no name guys I wont bother mentioning(feel free to mention them). TJ Ford on the Bucks was making passes that would fit into Magic Johnsons all time reel. Asik last year was rebounding nearly as well as Dwight Howard not that anyone cared.

If when we talk about the best...we exclude 90% of the league...why is being the best impressive? And if you dont have room in your head to consider people not hyped up by ESPN...why offer an opinion on who the best is? I wont hassle anyone for just wanting to waste a little time...talk some shit...have some fun.

But when you act like Jason Kidd was the worst shooter in the NBA before his second Dallas run(ive seen it said) when hes the #2 or #3 all time three point leader...im going to have something to say about it.





3. _____ is never gonna win a ring.

First let me say...I said that myself of Karl Malone in probably...1995. Maybe earlier. But I did it the same reason I hate seeing others do it now.

If im right im gonna rub it in on people who doubted me...and if im wrong ill pretend I never said anything. Nobody owns up. People just pretend nothing happened....unless they are right for the moment. Example:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=236545


Or dude who was going in on Dirk after he lost. People thought(and probably still do think) I hated Dirk. I never said he didnt have it in him to win. I was saying he was more clutch than his reputation as a failure years ago...even when pointing out said failures.

You cant call shit like that....you can say what will happen. But so few own up to being wrong...whats the point?

If you just change your name and act like it never happened....where did all those balls go that you needed to put yourself out there?

Ive had arguments with people telling me Jordan, Shaq, Peyton Manning, Eli, Elway, Kevin Garnett, and Lebron would never win.

Jordan is the only one the people in question really just copped to being wrong about. Rest are excuses. Shaq had Kobe...Peyton played the Bears....KG wasnt finals MVP...Lebron somehow had it easier playing back to back to backs in a short season...

Is nobody just...wrong? Im wrong. Often.

I thought Sean May, Adam Morrison, and a gang of others would be good.

I thought the Lakers would destroy the 04 Pistons.

I thought Nash would never play as well as he did in the 05 playoffs.

Whats wrong with that?

What is there to be afraid of? Yet so many people will just...flee their errors...

I remember a guy(A bulls fan sad to say) left for like 3 years because he made a "Tmac owns Kobe" topic mid game when Tmac was in Orlando and then Kobe took over and won the game.

The ****?

You leave for YEARS the night you get clowned?

The kind of people who make those "bold" predictions topics arent just...hurting the sports. So it isnt a true "I cant let this stand..." deleting issue...but its annoying as hell. If you say it...stand by it.






So I ask you...whats on your "That is so wrong you shouldnt have the right to say it" list far as basketball discussion?

Anything?

Am I the only one so annoyed by people I disagree with I wish I could remove their ability to speak?

I may be...and I do have the ability to remove your ability to speak...I just dont exercise it for the most part. But id really like to be a dick about it now and then. Just erase 70 posts a day and 20 topics till something has to be done about it.

Thus far...I satisfy myself typing for an hour at a time once every 3 weeks.

So...guess ill see you in 3 weeks. Well ill see every word you say....im here like...16 hours a day off and on. I just wont say much for a while.....and wish I had more "**** your opinion......this is getting deleted* in me like some of the other mods.

For the most part they do the right thing. Some of you really abuse the free speech thing....and those of you who do may have a lot to complain about(justified complaints probably) when I lose my patience. Im trying not to come in here like Rex Banner:




...and kill everyone who looks at me cockeyed.

Thus far I just rant now and then and its enough.

Till next time my ISH brothers and sisters(...brothers...lets just be honest)

HylianNightmare 03-21-2013 10:21 AM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
Actually really solid points, being a mod on here must be fun sometimes

Rasheed1 03-21-2013 10:41 AM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
A few things on this topic

I think in general people make predictions about what they WISH would happen.. They simply disguise these wishes as some kind of prescience on their part.

"ive seen the future" :facepalm

the compounding factor is the internet. You cant run from people in real life when you say something as dumb as "Lebron wont ever win a title because he isnt skilled enough"

the internet allows cowards to murk in & out and dodge responsibility for incredibly dumb statements

old poster (blaze should remember him) 150 used to say that the internet is the new bathroom wall... you may work at a job where everyone smiles in your face, but go in the bathroom and you will see a bunch hateful comments scribbled on the wall by somebody who works in the place. the person obviously would never have the courage to say these things ut his or her own mouth

I think that is one of the most insightful comments I have ever seen on this site.

It allows people to voice the unvalidated and emotional feelings they have without ever being responsible for them when they crash into reality...

so , like you said they can always duck out if the fallout becomes too heavy for them to weather it..

its like an escape hatch in human interaction and a win/win for cowards.

if you are correct? you crow and never let anyone forget it.

If you are wrong? you slither away and pretend you never said anything of the sort.

Kblaze8855 03-21-2013 10:57 AM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
Yea I remember him. And he was 100% right. The internet breeds cowards which is....amazing. That doesnt work so well for me. Too many people I deal with online I know in person. Ive met multiple people on here and other places. Been talking to people for years from back in the AIM days....a group of people who started here now post elsewhere(and here..but less) and many of them live in the same cities and have met. Takes the aynonymity down a notch. Posters who will not be named live on my street and post here because its always open on my computer and they joined long ago. Im the same here as offline....for better or worse.


And a small addendum to the first post....


Im not sure anyone who has made more than 20 topics about any individual deserves the right to make another one. And even if they dont know it...its for the best. They all hurt their own cause.

Ive been here 13 seasons now and there are 2 people I know ive made 5 topics on....Jordan...and Derrick Rose. Mostly because of making videos on them.

There are people making 20 Kobe or Lebron topics a WEEK.

And it just ruins their credibility. They come and complain to me and others about deleted topics.....as if they expect everything to be judged on its merits no matter who says it. It may sound ideal...but its not the real world.

Warren Buffet tells me something about how to build and maintain wealth im listening....some guy on the street? I might not even slow my stride. Different levels of credibility. Its not the message as much as the messenger at times.

And when you make 80 topics for or against whoever....you are no longer someone to listen to and consider the message. You are someone to disregard.

Mostly haters because really...there is more positive than negative to say about any great player. But either way your message is lost in the joke you have made yourself.

So at that point...your topics exist to annoy the other side...and if annoyance is the goal....why let it stand?

If you cant limit yourself to 1 topic every few weeks on any individual...you have a problem deeper than sports. You make 20 a month you shouldnt expect us to let them be. You arent a basketball fan at that point. You are a spark trying to light a flame that will only serve to annoy everyone not looking to be burned.

That is why the mods(though not usually me) delete so many of your repeat topics. And are right to do it id say.

MMM 03-21-2013 11:05 AM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
I like to say numbers don't lie
but liars use numbers

the truth is that not everyone has great understanding of numbers and without proper context it is easy to manipulate #'s to prove anything. I also like to say that numbers just give you a picture of a point in time but that doesn't show the entire video.

Scoooter 03-21-2013 01:11 PM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
Evelyn Beatrice Hall.

Clifton 03-21-2013 01:15 PM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
Please consider setting high standards and enforcing them.

It's mods that make a forum great, not posters.

Trolls are not necessary on the internet. There are plenty of blogs and forums where the discussion is on a high level. First Things. Metafilter. The League of Ordinary Gentlement. No annoying trolls, why? First of all, because they'd be lonely. Second, because they'd get banned. (And when they do, they come to forums like this one.)

At one group blog I frequent, there was a comboxer who was always stirring up trouble. He was better than 50% of ISH posters, but he was a pest. He would state opinions in a way that wasn't argued or articulated that poorly, but which was designed to stir up animosity. After a few weeks of this, he was banned, and the editor in chief of the site wrote a multi-paragraph blog entry explaining that, after careful consideration, he had been banned, and the reasons behind the decision.

Can you imagine something like that happening on ISH, where idiots run wild? If there are standards of decorum, people will adjust. People like being a part of something that has high standards, even if you'll never catch them admitting it. I've benefitted so much from the contributions of some of the better posters on this forum. They've been drowned out, and have almost all left. There's no reason why we can't set a bar and make people adjust to it if they want to post. If they're not good enough, they can adopt an attitude of humility. Maybe, come here to have conversations with vets, and learn from them, and become better posters themselves, the vets of tomorrow.

Or you could just say, it's just an online community, who cares? But if that's the case, why spend so much time here? If you're going to spend a lot of time in a place, shouldn't you want it to be worthwhile?

This is completely on the mods. It's your decision - you have the choice to either decide to make this place good, or let it continue to fester.

It's also on good posters to post more... but it's hard to ask a good poster to make the effort to produce thoughtful ideas when it'll immediately get demoted to page 2 after some guy bumps up 7 Lakers Championship Flight or similar threads from last summer.

RoundMoundOfReb 03-21-2013 01:20 PM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Clifton
Please consider setting high standards and enforcing them.

It's mods that make a forum great, not posters.

Trolls are not necessary on the internet. There are plenty of blogs and forums where the discussion is on a high level. First Things. Metafilter. The League of Ordinary Gentlement. No annoying trolls, why? First of all, because they'd be lonely. Second, because they'd get banned. (And when they do, they come to forums like this one.)

At one group blog I frequent, there was a comboxer who was always stirring up trouble. He was better than 50% of ISH posters, but he was a pest. He would state opinions in a way that wasn't argued or articulated that poorly, but which was designed to stir up animosity. After a few weeks of this, he was banned, and the editor in chief of the site wrote a multi-paragraph blog entry explaining that, after careful consideration, he had been banned, and the reasons behind the decision.

Can you imagine something like that happening on ISH, where idiots run wild? If there are standards of decorum, people will adjust. People like being a part of something that has high standards, even if you'll never catch them admitting it. I've benefitted so much from the contributions of some of the better posters on this forum. They've been drowned out, and have almost all left. There's no reason why we can't set a bar and make people adjust to it if they want to post. If they're not good enough, they can adopt an attitude of humility. Maybe, come here to have conversations with vets, and learn from them, and become better posters themselves, the vets of tomorrow.

Or you could just say, it's just an online community, who cares? But if that's the case, why spend so much time here? If you're going to spend a lot of time in a place, shouldn't you want it to be worthwhile?

This is completely on the mods. It's your decision - you have the choice to either decide to make this place good, or let it continue to fester.

It's also on good posters to post more... but it's hard to ask a good poster to make the effort to produce thoughtful ideas when it'll immediately get demoted to page 2 after some guy bumps up 7 Lakers Championship Flight or similar threads from last summer.


Mods on this forum don't even have banning powers.

jongib369 03-21-2013 01:21 PM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
Yea I remember him. And he was 100% right. The internet breeds cowards which is....amazing. That doesnt work so well for me. Too many people I deal with online I know in person. Ive met multiple people on here and other places. Been talking to people for years from back in the AIM days....a group of people who started here now post elsewhere(and here..but less) and many of them live in the same cities and have met. Takes the aynonymity down a notch. Posters who will not be named live on my street and post here because its always open on my computer and they joined long ago. Im the same here as offline....for better or worse.


And a small addendum to the first post....


Im not sure anyone who has made more than 20 topics about any individual deserves the right to make another one. And even if they dont know it...its for the best. They all hurt their own cause.

Ive been here 13 seasons now and there are 2 people I know ive made 5 topics on....Jordan...and Derrick Rose. Mostly because of making videos on them.

There are people making 20 Kobe or Lebron topics a WEEK.

And it just ruins their credibility. They come and complain to me and others about deleted topics.....as if they expect everything to be judged on its merits no matter who says it. It may sound ideal...but its not the real world.

Warren Buffet tells me something about how to build and maintain wealth im listening....some guy on the street? I might not even slow my stride. Different levels of credibility. Its not the message as much as the messenger at times.

And when you make 80 topics for or against whoever....you are no longer someone to listen to and consider the message. You are someone to disregard.

Mostly haters because really...there is more positive than negative to say about any great player. But either way your message is lost in the joke you have made yourself.

So at that point...your topics exist to annoy the other side...and if annoyance is the goal....why let it stand?

If you cant limit yourself to 1 topic every few weeks on any individual...you have a problem deeper than sports. You make 20 a month you shouldnt expect us to let them be. You arent a basketball fan at that point. You are a spark trying to light a flame that will only serve to annoy everyone not looking to be burned.

That is why the mods(though not usually me) delete so many of your repeat topics. And are right to do it id say.


Thankfully I'm not guilty of this

Clifton 03-21-2013 01:26 PM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
Quote:

Mods on this forum don't even have banning powers.
It's okay if the power to ban rests with one admin, as long as mods are active in recommending bad posters be banned, and that admin being willing to issue warnings, and then eventually pull the trigger.

There should seriously be a mods-only forum where these things are constantly being discussed.

Active mods don't make a great forum, but they make a great forum possible. And, in fact, likely. Good moderation attracts good posters. As fast as ISH has gone downhill, it's still the best place to discuss NBA ball in an intelligent and enthusiastic way. There's lots of room for improvement here.

plowking 03-21-2013 01:41 PM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
Some posters may have more posts, but I can bet you anything that Kblaze has the most words written on these forums. Nearly everything he writes rivals that of pauk's "save Lebron" essay response. Shit is long (that's what she said).

Clifton 03-21-2013 01:46 PM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
Quote:

Some posters may have more posts, but I can bet you anything that Kblaze has the most words written on these forums.
Another more minor critique that I'd like to make is that good posters post more frequently. It seems as though being made a moderator makes good posters less involved in the conversation. That's unfortunate. Being a mod is something anyone can do. It shouldn't be something given to every good poster, drawing them away from the discussion.

Kblaze8855 03-21-2013 01:47 PM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
I suspect so. I wrote like 15 of these:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho....php?p=4363285


a week for 6-7 years. I was around 25-30 thousand posts before we changed forums....

And even without banning(Jeff was working on that a while back) im sure I could remove most anyone I wanted to. It would take a bit of effort but I suspect I could frustrate someone with enough deletes to make them shape up. But who is to say what I want is right?

Well..me I guess. But im not prepared to impose my will on hundreds of people who didnt ask.

Clifton 03-21-2013 02:18 PM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
Quote:

But who is to say what I want is right?
Reason and common experience. Standards come from the top, and high standards are better than low standards, and people prefer them. If that's not true, how come cults exist? The more arcane and complicated their rituals, the more outlandish the demands on their members, the more likely hundreds of them are to drink the kool aid. In every facet of their lives, people crave high standards because they make whatever they're doing seem more important.

They will of course settle for less, because people are also lazy. That's why they have to be insisted upon and enforced from the top.

It really shouldn't take too much. Once the bad posters are made aware that they're not welcome here (and not just in a 'we hate you, but we'll still fill up 90% of the front page yelling at you' way; but actually in a 'we flat out will not engage you in any way unless you say something worthwhile' way), they'll drift somewhere else.

RoundMoundOfReb 03-21-2013 02:23 PM

Re: *Warning..self righteous tome inside* "I may not agree with what you say...
 
Why can't we sticky one kobe/lebron super thread and merge all these nonsense topics into it? That way people who want to can still talk about them but they won't be spamming the forums.


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