Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

[QUOTE=nycelt84]This is circa 70-73. Dr. J and Malone weren't even playing pro basketball then and Hawkins was in the NBA. But what should I expect from the guy who claims Pippen has more clutch moments in the playoffs than Havlicek and who knows nothing about Havlicek's clutch playoffs moments lol. Havlicek stealing the ball in Game 7 of the '65 ECF is more clutch than anything Pippen ever did. And that's not even before bringing up what Havlicek did in the '68, '69, and '76 Finals among several other years.[/QUOTE]


Really! And he claims I make dumb posts lol :facepalm

[QUOTE]Or his defense on Magic?[/QUOTE]

[I]Really, one game when Jordan got into foul trouble? Jordan guarded Magic most of the series, and I find it funny how you fail to acknowledge his legendary defense on Worthy[/I]


[QUOTE]Or his leading the Bulls back from that 15 point deficit vs the Blazers?[/QUOTE]

[I]I've seen you say this over and over, so I decided to break it down

Armstrong assist to Hansen for 3 points

Hansen pass to King flag foul by Drexler..free throws

Pippen scores on post up

King fouled free throws

Hansen to Pip, post up turn around

Missed shot rebound Armstrong, dribbles out hits turn around

Pip to King, backs up Williams, who flops, hits turn around

All this with Blazers imploding on offense..Bulls within 3

[B]Jordan now enters game after Blazers timeout[/B]

Pippen catches them napping drives in for a lay-up

Jordan drives floater over Cliff

Pippen hits 3 with shot clock running down, nice shot... ties game at 85

Jordan hits tough jumper falling to right(87-87)

Jordan steal dunk(89-87)

Pippen jumper from free throw line (91-89)

Jordan fadeaway (93-91)

Jordan dribble up the court, blows by Drexler lay-up (95-91) (35 seconds)

Pippen dumb foul, gives free throws (95-93)

Jordan fouled intentionally free throws(97-93) 11.8 seconds left

ball game[/I]

[B][I]Pippen played a damn good game but u talk about it like he went on a one man tear...in the time Jordan/Grant are on the bench, King scores 6 points, Pippen 4 points......Jordan enters and scores 12 points, Pippen 7.....Jordan outscores Pippen 12-11 in fourth quarter
[/I][/B]

[QUOTE]Or the game clinching steal vs the Jazz?[/QUOTE]

[I]What about the game clinching basket by Kerr? Or the 39/11/4 Jordan put up, and his ridiculous 4th quarter run that entire series, and in this game scored all the points down the stretch and assisted on Kerr's shot..so u should say GAME PRESERVING STEAL...because u have no proof that UTAH makes a shot if ball is not stolen[/I]

[QUOTE]and I find it funny how you fail to acknowledge his legendary defense on Worthy[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: Worthy on a busted ankle was posting him up at will.

The sad part about many pro-Pippen guys is the fact that u DON'T let sleeping dogs lie. Pippen redefined the SF spot, deserves to be in the HOF, and was a great player. But it's when u try to elevate Pip higher than he should be. I think at the highest, Pip has a case to be rated in the late 20's GOAT wise. But more likely I think he is somewhere in the 30's. Hondo is a top 15 kind of guy. And at one time a top 10 GOAT guy. At one time, Hondo was arguably the GOAT SF! Pippen was simply NEVER on that kind of level. If Pippen was more DOMINANT OFFENSIVELY, he would be on the level Hondo is and possibly higher.

I'm not saying u HAVE to be a great scorer to be a great player for ALL U HATERS OUT THERE! But with all Pippen has accomplished, why is it guys like Barkley and Mailman with NO rings are rated above Pippen who has six rings? It's because of the perception Pip wasn't an alpha dog. What other reason could it be?

Isiah is rated higher than Pippen on most GOAT list. Why is that when Pippen has more rings than Isiah? Once again, it's because Isiah was known to be a killer scoring the ball when it was showtime. Once again, I'm not saying that's a be all end all. However, if Pippen is on the level many try to put him at (Dr.J, Bird, Hondo, Bron level SF), then why isn't he ranked as high as them GOAT wise by most?

[QUOTE=pauk]Pippen was better defensively, but Havlicek was better overall especially during his peak.

During their peaks the statistics/productions werent that close either. At two points in his career Havlicek was flirting with almost 30 point triple double averages (29-9-8 and then 28-8-8). Havlicek was the alpha dog in at least 1 championship run, arguably 2.[/QUOTE]
Pippen would've been the alpha dog on those teams too. How many of the Bulls six championships would Hondo be considered "alpha dog"?


What kind of numbers would Pippen avg if he played in the 60s?

Notice a pattern with Pip fans or to be blunt

I think many confuse what an alpha dog is. Now do I think peak Pippen could be the best player on a title team? HELL YA! If it's a team like the 2000s Pistons or the late 90's Blazers team that a declining Pippen was on Those are teams deep with talented All Star caliber players that Pippen was better than. Pip could carry his same scoring mindset and have guys like Rip, Chauncey, Sheed, Sabonis, Steve Smith, Damon, Bonzi, Detlef, etc. chip in with the scoring. All the while Pip is acknowledged as the best player on the squad. So if that is your definition of alpha dog then yes u are correct.

But the term alpha dog is REALLY defined for guys who can take a game by the throat scoring the rock. PG's like Magic, Isiah, and CP3 qualify for this too because when it's time to go or when they damn well feel like they can become bloodthirsty and killers scoring the rock. It counts for Lebron as well who by his scoring numbers show he's an epic scorer and puts the foot on the gas, even though his clutch gene is questioned by many. Guys like MJ, Big O, Bird, West, Baylor, Gervin, AI, Barry, Nique,Kobe, King, Wade, Melo, Dr. J, and Durant are frankly some of the guys who are the ULTIMATE at being an alpha dog. They are so great at scoring and get greedy and turn into assholes damn near wanting to torture teams. Pippen in this realm ISN'T an alpha dog.

And in terms of bigs, of course Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mailman, Dirk, Hayes, Petitt, Duncan and Barkley qualify. KG is more of a Lebron type for a big, but still has enough stage presence to be considered an alpha dog.

[QUOTE=Calabis][I]Really, one game when Jordan got into foul trouble? Jordan guarded Magic most of the series, and I find it funny how you fail to acknowledge his legendary defense on Worthy[/I]
[B][/B]



[I]I've seen you say this over and over, so I decided to break it down

Armstrong assist to Hansen for 3 points

Hansen pass to King flag foul by Drexler..free throws

Pippen scores on post up

King fouled free throws

Hansen to Pip, post up turn around

Missed shot rebound Armstrong, dribbles out hits turn around

Pip to King, backs up Williams, who flops, hits turn around

All this with Blazers imploding on offense..Bulls within 3

[B]Jordan now enters game after Blazers timeout[/B]

Pippen catches them napping drives in for a lay-up

Jordan drives floater over Cliff

Pippen hits 3 with shot clock running down, nice shot... ties game at 85

Jordan hits tough jumper falling to right(87-87)

Jordan steal dunk(89-87)

Pippen jumper from free throw line (91-89)
[B]that was the go ahead basket. [/B]
Jordan fadeaway (93-91)

Jordan dribble up the court, blows by Drexler lay-up (95-91) (35 seconds)

Pippen dumb foul, gives free throws (95-93)

Jordan fouled intentionally free throws(97-93) 11.8 seconds left

ball game[/I]

[B][I]Pippen played a damn good game but u talk about it like he went on a one man tear...in the time Jordan/Grant are on the bench, King scores 6 points, Pippen 4 points......Jordan enters and scores 12 points, Pippen 7.....Jordan outscores Pippen 12-11 [B][B][/B][/B]in fourth quarter
[/I][/B]



[I]What about the game clinching basket by Kerr? Or the 39/11/4 Jordan put up, and his ridiculous 4th quarter run that entire series, and in this game scored all the points down the stretch and assisted on Kerr's shot..so u should say GAME PRESERVING STEAL...because u have no proof that UTAH makes a shot if ball is not stolen[/I][/QUOTE]
That steal meant the Jazz had [B]NO CHANCE[/B] at even attempting a shot. I brought up that steal because someone statd Pippen didn't have a clutch moment like the one where Hondo steals the ball. There is no reason why one play should be ranked over the other. Unless you have an agenda.



I never stated or implied Pippen defended Magic exclusively from game 2 on. Doesn't make his game 2 contribution any less impactful.

[QUOTE=bizil]I think many confuse what an alpha dog is. Now do I think peak Pippen could be the best player on a title team? HELL YA! If it's a team like the 2000s Pistons or the late 90's Blazers team that a declining Pippen was on Those are teams deep with talented All Star caliber players that Pippen was better than. Pip could carry his same scoring mindset and have guys like Rip, Chauncey, Sheed, Sabonis, Steve Smith, Damon, Bonzi, Detlef, etc. chip in with the scoring. All the while Pip is acknowledged as the best player on the squad. So if that is your definition of alpha dog then yes u are correct.

But the term alpha dog is REALLY defined for guys who can take a game by the throat scoring the rock. PG's like Magic, Isiah, and CP3 qualify for this too because when it's time to go or when they damn well feel like they can become bloodthirsty and killers scoring the rock. It counts for Lebron as well who by his scoring numbers show he's an epic scorer and puts the foot on the gas, even though his clutch gene is questioned by many. Guys like MJ, Big O, Bird, West, Baylor, Gervin, AI, Barry, Nique,Kobe, King, Wade, Melo, Dr. J, and Durant are frankly some of the guys who are the ULTIMATE at being an alpha dog. They are so great at scoring and get greedy and turn into assholes damn near wanting to torture teams. Pippen in this realm ISN'T an alpha dog.

And in terms of bigs, of course Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mailman, Dirk, Hayes, Petitt, Duncan and Barkley qualify. KG is more of a Lebron type for a big, but still has enough stage presence to be considered an alpha dog.[/QUOTE]
But the point is what makes the way Pippen impacted the game on the court any less great than some of the players you mentioned? You mistake a style for results. For instance. Rajon Rondo and Derron Williams. Williams would be considered the best scorer of the two, but not neccesarily the better PG. Id even say Rondo has more impact on the court than Williams.

Your biggest knock on Pippen has always been that he didn't score enough to win. The fact is when all the players you lited lost, they didn't score enough to win. I just don't see why one should be considered a failure while the others excused.

What makes Kevin Garnett more of an "alpha dog" than Pippen? When he was with Minnesota he didn't want the big shots. He left that up to troy hudson and sprewell.

[QUOTE=andgar923]Notice a pattern with Pip fans or to be blunt

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Jus outta curiousity, what would Pippen stats look like had he played in the 60s?[/QUOTE]

Arguing with you is like playing a wack-a-mole. Every time your point is disproven, you switch topics. I am not even sure i understand your question - do you mean what if there would be a timemachine and Pippen would be transported back to the 60s? Is that how GOAT ranking should be measured -thats freaking ridiculous! And is there even any proof that Pippen could be an alpha male even in the 60s other than "i am sure he could be"? Could Pippen have led Boston against Lakers of 69 or Miwalkee of 74? And wouldn't your timemachine scenario also take away MJ's toughening up of Pippen, which almost everyone agees made Pippen a much better player? Bottom line - you are being silly again.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]But the point is what makes the way Pippen impacted the game on the court any less great than some of the players you mentioned? You mistake a style for results. For instance. Rajon Rondo and Derron Williams. Williams would be considered the best scorer of the two, but not neccesarily the better PG. Id even say Rondo has more impact on the court than Williams.

Your biggest knock on Pippen has always been that he didn't score enough to win. The fact is when all the players you lited lost, they didn't score enough to win. I just don't see why one should be considered a failure while the others excused.

What makes Kevin Garnett more of an "alpha dog" than Pippen? When he was with Minnesota he didn't want the big shots. He left that up to troy hudson and sprewell.[/QUOTE]

Once again if Pippen's impact is so great then why is he not usually regarded as a top 20 player of all time. Especially given all of his accolades and achievements? U keep avoiding talking about that shit because u KNOW Pip isn't a top 20 player of all time.

If u gave Mailman six rings, he would be regarded as the GOAT PF. Ditto for Chuck. Ditto for KG. Ditto for Dirk. Ditto for Pettit. Ditto for Hayes. U give any of those immortals six rings they are most likely the GOAT PF. The main thing that separates those guys at PF is the fact that Timmy has four rings, while the others have at the most three like McHale. All of those guys were flat out MORE DOMINANT players than Pippen. U give them six rings, shiiiiiit! If Pippen WAS ANYWHERE NEAR JORDAN'S LEVEL, HE WOULD BE A TOP TEN GOAT FLAT OUT!! For Pip to be rated where he is GOAT wise is a telling statement.

If u gave Dominique Wilkins six rings, he would have been regarded as a top 3 GOAT SF. Given he's scored more points than any SF EVER in NBA History, was great for a long time, and redefined the NBA while becoming one of the 5-6 guys to really make the All Star game what it is today. I can go on and on. Pip ACTUALLY has six rings in his prime years as one of the premier players in the world. For him to be rated by most experts historically at the highest right around 30 GOAT wise is a testament right there. Defend ya boy NOW!!

[QUOTE=97 bulls]That steal meant the Jazz had [B]NO CHANCE[/B] at even attempting a shot. I brought up that steal because someone statd Pippen didn't have a clutch moment like the one where Hondo steals the ball. There is no reason why one play should be ranked over the other. Unless you have an agenda.



I never stated or implied Pippen defended Magic exclusively from game 2 on. Doesn't make his game 2 contribution any less impactful.[/QUOTE]

Damn dude you keep moving the yard stick, "the go ahead bucket" really? Jordan hit a go ahead bucket prior to that, yet Pippen makes a jumper and Jordan goes on a clutch tear, yet all you can see is Pip...:oldlol:

So Pippen getting toasted by Worthy didn't hurt the Bulls, but his Game 2 defense on Magic changed the series :facepalm , nevermind that Jordan played out of his f'n mind in Game 2 with 13 straight baskets :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=bizil]Once again if Pippen's impact is so great then why is he not usually regarded as a top 20 player of all time. Especially given all of his accolades and achievements? U keep avoiding talking about that shit because u KNOW Pip isn't a top 20 player of all time.

If u gave Mailman six rings, he would be regarded as the GOAT PF. Ditto for Chuck. Ditto for KG. Ditto for Dirk. Ditto for Pettit. Ditto for Hayes. U give any of those immortals six rings they are most likely the GOAT PF. The main thing that separates those guys at PF is the fact that Timmy has four rings, while the others have at the most three like McHale. All of those guys were flat out MORE DOMINANT players than Pippen. U give them six rings, shiiiiiit! If Pippen WAS ANYWHERE NEAR JORDAN'S LEVEL, HE WOULD BE A TOP TEN GOAT FLAT OUT!! For Pip to be rated where he is GOAT wise is a telling statement.

If u gave Dominique Wilkins six rings, he would have been regarded as a top 3 GOAT SF. Given he's scored more points than any SF EVER in NBA History, was great for a long time, and redefined the NBA while becoming one of the 5-6 guys to really make the All Star game what it is today. I can go on and on. Pip ACTUALLY has six rings in his prime years as one of the premier players in the world. For him to be rated by most experts historically at the highest right around 30 GOAT wise is a testament right there. Defend ya boy NOW!![/QUOTE]
Who are these experts Biz? GMs? Players? Coaches? Those are the only people whose opinion id respect when it comes to ranking players. Can you show me a top 10 list from any of these people? No. Because they don't rank players like we do. In fact, I ve never seen a ranking from a person that's been in the NBA, coached, or GMed. I've seen plenty starting fives, and read their reviews. And a lot of them pick pippen in their alltime starting five



What you're referring to is sports writers and columnists. Neither are experts. They just get payed to write their opinion. The fact you put so much stock in them says a lot about you.

[QUOTE=Calabis]Damn dude you keep moving the yard stick, "the go ahead bucket" really? Jordan hit a go ahead bucket prior to that, yet Pippen makes a jumper and Jordan goes on a clutch tear, yet all you can see is Pip...:oldlol:

So Pippen getting toasted by Worthy didn't hurt the Bulls, but his Game 2 defense on Magic changed the series :facepalm , nevermind that Jordan played out of his f'n mind in Game 2 with 13 straight baskets :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
I'm not comparing Pippen to Jordan Calabis. What the **** are you talking about?


And when did Worthy "toast" Pippen?

Game 1 Worthy shot 11/24 and scored 22 pts with Pippen on him

Game 2 Jordan moved over to Worthy and he shot 9/17 and scored 24 pts his best game.

Game 3 Worthy was 9/16 for 19 pts with Pippen on him

Game 4 Worthy was 6/16 for 12 pts with Pippen on him

Pippen did a great job on Worthy


And yes that game two was a series changer.