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[QUOTE=Raz]And Havlicek well surpassed those numbers. He was arguably the best wing defender of his generation, was a number one option on offense, got players involved at a better rate than Pippen, and he could actually shoot consistently.
Havlicek is one of the best all-around players we have ever seen, and he did it over such a long period. Pippen had a small window of dominant play.[/QUOTE]
Its pointless, quit trying, even that window wasn't dominant..it was very good
[QUOTE=D.J.]Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game. [/QUOTE]
Did you really just say that? Please tell me you aren't being serious.
[QUOTE=Calabis]:roll: :wtf: :facepalm
Ever hear of Jordan, far superior than Pippen as a two way player, as is Lebron as, was Hondo...I swear Pippen must be TOP 10 GOAT, the way these young dudes who never saw him play on here talk about him.[/QUOTE]
U are damn right! Jordan, Hondo, and Lebron are great scorers on top of the great defense. U also have Kobe, Wade, and West that fit the bill. U could even argue guys like Clyde Frazier, Payton, Dennis Johnson, and Moncrief.
[QUOTE=bizil]U are damn right! Jordan, Hondo, and Lebron are great scorers on top of the great defense. U also have Kobe, Wade, and West that fit the bill. U could even argue guys like Clyde Frazier, Payton, Dennis Johnson, and Moncrief.[/QUOTE]
Pippen was one of my favorites, but I swear the last couple of months on ISH, Pippen has become top 5 GOAT status, he is Jordan, Magic and Bird combined in one, they talk about his defense like he was shutting down guys, holding them to 5 points....its funny how they say Jordan benefited from Pippen on the defense end, yet the same could be said about Pippen, its a lot easier when you have another great perimeter defender in Jordan on the side.
These threads are always funny cuz people speak with such confidence on players they never even saw play. You can literally count on two hands the number of people on this board who saw JH play :oldlol:
[QUOTE=bizil]U are damn right! Jordan, Hondo, and Lebron are great scorers on top of the great defense. U also have Kobe, Wade, and West that fit the bill. U could even argue guys like Clyde Frazier, Payton, Dennis Johnson, and Moncrief.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention the centers that were better two way players. He said best two way player ever. I'm assuming he was including all players. Either way, he's still wrong.
[QUOTE=Calabis]Pippen was one of my favorites, but I swear the last couple of months on ISH, Pippen has become top 5 GOAT status, he is Jordan, Magic and Bird combined in one, they talk about his defense like he was shutting down guys, holding them to 5 points....its funny how they say Jordan benefited from Pippen on the defense end, yet the same could be said about Pippen, its a lot easier when you have another [b]great perimeter defender[/b] in Jordan on the side.[/QUOTE]
Jordan, yes: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4gigN2zMU4[/url]
[QUOTE=B-Low]These threads are always funny cuz people speak with such confidence on players they never even saw play. You can literally count on two hands the number of people on this board who saw JH play :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Hence the reason why I said I'm not going to comment on a guy I never seen play.
[QUOTE=Calabis]Pippen was one of my favorites, but I swear the last couple of months on ISH, Pippen has become top 5 GOAT status, he is Jordan, Magic and Bird combined in one, they talk about his defense like he was shutting down guys, holding them to 5 points....its funny how they say Jordan benefited from Pippen on the defense end, yet the same could be said about Pippen, its a lot easier when you have another great perimeter defender in Jordan on the side.[/QUOTE]
Oddly enough, the Bulls actually improved defensively when Jordan retired in 93.
[QUOTE=KG215]Not to mention the centers that were better two way players. He said best two way player ever. I'm assuming he was including all players. Either way, he's still wrong.[/QUOTE]
U are indeed right about the bigs! I feel it's why centers dominated the MVP award in NBA history. From Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, David, Ewing, Walton, etc. a dominant big on both ends can influence a game like no others. Even guys who were very good scorers and great defenders like Russell, Howard, Zo, Gilmore and Thurmond showed how valuable they are. Duncan and KG really set that bar for the PF position, but both are 7 footers.
[QUOTE=DatAsh]Oddly enough, the Bulls actually improved defensively when Jordan retired in 93.[/QUOTE]
So was this all because of Pippen? Or was it some of the other pieces added, that were slightly better than two aging starters from the previous season?
[I]Although mediocre defender B.J. Armstrong led the team in minutes, Chicago's D improved in large part because they received outstanding performances from Pippen & Grant, each of whom earned Defensive Player of the Year consideration. Pippen had been known as a tremendous defender for years, but in 1994 he was the best perimeter defender in the NBA, and his 96.9 DRtg was one of the best ever by a player 6'8" or shorter. Also, not to be forgotten was Pete Myers' ability to vaguely approximate Jordan's defense at SG, Scott Williams' strong post D, better play from Stacey King, and solid interior performances from Wennington, Blount, and Longley (a major improvement over what Cartwright & King delivered in '93).
Despite the plaudits Jordan received for his D, defense remains largely a team activity, so it makes sense that this was the area in which Chicago did the best job of surviving MJ's retirement. With one of the greatest coaches ever, one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever, [B]and a supporting cast of mostly solid defensive players (especially on the defensive glass)[/B], it should not have come as a surprise that the Bulls cobbled together a defense that was largely unfazed by the loss of Jordan. This is also good news for Cleveland, who had the NBA's 7th-best D in 2010 and might expect to retain most of that in 2011 despite losing James, a 1st-Team All-Defender.
The Bulls' offense weakened, but didn't totally collapse. There's no question that Chicago's offense suffered a major setback with Jordan's departure -- they fell from 112.9 pts/100 (4.9 better than average, 2nd in the league) in 1993 to 106.1 (0.2 worse than avg., 14th) in 1994 -- but Pippen proved himself a capable high-usage #1 option, and Armstrong/Grant/Kerr were very efficient complimentary players. You can't deny that the Bulls' offense without Jordan was pretty ordinary in '94, but the loss was not catastrophic like it would be in '99, the second time MJ retired[/I]
I like Scottie and all, but Havlicek was a bit better in my mind. Scottie had a better defensive game and rebounding game than Hondo, but Hondo's longevity, energy and an overall better offensive game make me want to take him. Plus, Scottie wasn't a good #1. Hondo was. Though, I'm not sure who was the better passer.
I feel Hondo can be underrated here sometimes, but that's just me.
[QUOTE=Freedom Kid7]I like Scottie and all, but Havlicek was a bit better in my mind. Scottie had a better defensive game and rebounding game than Hondo, but Hondo's longevity, energy and an overall better offensive game make me want to take him. Plus, Scottie wasn't a good #1. Hondo was. Though, I'm not sure who was the better passer.
I feel Hondo can be underrated here sometimes, but that's just me.[/QUOTE]
Not even close, Hondo was the best player on the 68, 69, and 74 teams. Pippen was a great 2nd best player on the team but he never won as the team's best player.
[QUOTE=kizut1659]Not even close, Hondo was the best player on the 68, 69, 74 and perhaps 76 teams. Pippen was a great 2nd best player on the team but he never won as the team's best player.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. I do think it's closer than some player comparisons around here though, so hence the close bit. Hondo is a superior player and if I was assembling a GOAT Team he'd be the 6th man (I'm not saying he's the 6th best player, but he excelled in the 6th man role back when he played better than most 6th men. And with his relentless energy and solid scoring, I feel it'd be a good pick)
[QUOTE=Freedom Kid7]Yeah. I do think it's closer than some player comparisons around here though, so hence the close bit. Hondo is a superior player and if I was assembling a GOAT Team he'd be the 6th man (I'm not saying he's the 6th best player, but he excelled in the 6th man role back when he played better than most 6th men. And with his relentless energy and solid scoring, I feel it'd be a good pick)[/QUOTE]
I actually think Havlicek is one of the most underrated players of all time. I don't see for example why he should be ranked much lower, if at all, than Jerry West.