Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]And you think Durant has nothing to do with it though...so that means the refs ref Durant differently than other players for no reason.

How do you not see what I'm saying? Think about it. You have different refs, reffing different games, with different defenses and players, different scenarios...etc.

And Durant continues to shoot his free throw rate. So either the refs have chosen to give him softer calls...or he does something to warrant more trips to the line.

You watching the games is worth something, but it's also extremely limited because you don't watch every second of every game of Durant, Harden, Kobe, Melo, Lebron..etc.

So it's a limited analysis and prone to confirmation bias.[/QUOTE]
Lemme ask you a straight question and give me a straight answer.

From what you've seen, does Durant get an unusual amou... Nope. Can't say "unusual" because you'll dance around what constitutes an "unusual amount".

Scratch that. From what you've seen, does Durant typically* get a NOTICEABLE amount of what you think would generally be considered "questionable" calls in his favor?

*Typically meaning, is it normal of when you personally watch him play that it's commonplace for him to get these calls. Not just once in a blue moon. It's a recurring thing.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Lemme ask you a straight question and give me a straight answer.

From what you've seen, does Durant get an unusual amou... Nope. Can't say "unusual" because you'll dance around what constitutes an "unusual amount".

Scratch that. From what you've seen, does Durant typically* get a NOTICEABLE amount of what you think would generally be considered "questionable" calls in his favor?

*Typically meaning, is it normal of when you personally watch him play that it's commonplace for him to get these calls. Not just once in a blue moon. It's a recurring thing.[/QUOTE]

This is not me dancing around it at all.

My answer is yes, but it would also be that way with Kobe and Harden. When I watch Kobe play...I feel like he gets a ton of phantom calls on long jumpers. Harden seems to me like he gets the whistle every time he drives.

Take Dirk...he gets hit all the time with no call compared to the above 3 guys. But Dirk is also much worse at selling the call and playing for fouls than the above 3 guys...at least he has been the last couple years.

This is why confirmation bias is so deadly...even if I grant you that Durant seems to get a lot of these when I watch...it would mean nothing more than the statement itself...and wouldn't mean that Durant isn't doing something to get those calls.

Again, guys like Durant and Harden are either doing something other players aren't....or the refs have a mandate to gift them free throws.

And by "doing something"...that encompasses everything. From style of play, to selling calls, to their physique...everything. It may be that Durant gets a huge benefit from his long arms and frail body...that still means he's doing something to warrant the calls because he's using those to his advantage.

But I think it's far more simple than that. Durant is a sharp shooter that happens to be near 7 feet that can also put the ball on the floor. He's such a good shooter that he runs off screens like Allen and Miller did. He's just a nightmare to guard with the ball and without the ball...because any space you give him...it's over. And then, to top it off, he has an ability to sell calls imo...and most others in this thread have agreed with that. And he plays on a team that is in the bonus more than pretty much every other team in the league. And he shoots all the techs.

So I think it's simple and easily explained logically.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]This is not me dancing around it at all.

My answer is yes, but it would also be that way with Kobe and Harden. When I watch Kobe play...I feel like he gets a ton of phantom calls on long jumpers. Harden seems to me like he gets the whistle every time he drives.

Take Dirk...he gets hit all the time with no call compared to the above 3 guys. But Dirk is also much worse at selling the call and playing for fouls than the above 3 guys...at least he has been the last couple years.

This is why confirmation bias is so deadly...even if I grant you that Durant seems to get a lot of these when I watch...it would mean nothing more than the statement itself...and wouldn't mean that Durant isn't doing something to get those calls.

Again, guys like Durant and Harden are either doing something other players aren't....or the refs have a mandate to gift them free throws.

And by "doing something"...that encompasses everything. From style of play, to selling calls, to their physique...everything. It may be that Durant gets a huge benefit from his long arms and frail body...that still means he's doing something to warrant the calls because he's using those to his advantage.

But I think it's far more simple than that. Durant is a sharp shooter that happens to be near 7 feet that can also put the ball on the floor. He's such a good shooter that he runs off screens like Allen and Miller did. He's just a nightmare to guard with the ball and without the ball...because any space you give him...it's over. And then, to top it off, he has an ability to sell calls imo...and most others in this thread have agreed with that. And he plays on a team that is in the bonus more than pretty much every other team in the league. And he shoots all the techs.

So I think it's simple and easily explained logically.[/QUOTE]
This might be where our difference on the matter might be. When I talk about KD getting phantom calls, I'm not usually talking about shooting fouls. Yes, other players like Harden are in the same boat.That's not my issue. My problem with Durant is with the non-shooting and the off-ball calls.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]This might be where our difference on the matter might be. When I talk about KD getting phantom calls, I'm not usually talking about shooting fouls. Yes, other players like Harden are in the same boat.That's not my issue. My problem with Durant is with the non-shooting and the off-ball calls.[/QUOTE]

I'm referencing everything. The reason Durant gets those is because he's so much better of a shooter than the other guys. So when he comes off a screen....guys have to play him way more physically. They have to grab and bump and hold...and with Durant's frail body and his ability to sell the call and the fact that he's actually being fouled more often in those situations...you get the results...logically.

Why can't we just give players credit. It's Durant's great shooting that causes what you are talking about. If defenders didn't do that to him...he'd just get a couple more great looks a game coming off screens.

Which is what I've been saying the whole time. Cut down on these foul calls and you'd just see him take a couple more good shots a game if he was defended how Kobe and Melo are.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm referencing everything. The reason Durant gets those is because he's so much better of a shooter than the other guys. So when he comes off a screen....guys have to play him way more physically. [B]They have to grab and bump and hold...and with Durant's frail body and his ability to sell the call and the fact that he's actually being fouled more often in those situations...you get the results...logically.[/B]

Why can't we just give players credit. It's Durant's great shooting that causes what you are talking about. If defenders didn't do that to him...he'd just get a couple more great looks a game coming off screens.

Which is what I've been saying the whole time. Cut down on these foul calls and you'd just see him take a couple more good shots a game if he was defended how Kobe and Melo are.[/QUOTE]
See, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when he literally doesn't touch another player AT ALL.

Ask anyone who watches/follows the thunder. This dude has been stumbling around all season. The guy trips over his own feet dribbles off his knee or just completely loses his handle for no apparent reason.

It's too often that he does this and the whistle is blown and on the replay it's clear that nobody even touched him. He just messed up.

Even if we take away the FTs he's given for no reason he'll still be a great scorer, but you can't deny that he gets a couple of those every other game.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]See, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when he literally doesn't touch another player AT ALL.

Ask anyone who watches/follows the thunder. This dude has been stumbling around all season. The guy trips over his own feet dribbles off his knee or just completely loses his handle for no apparent reason.

It's too often that he does this and the whistle is blown and on the replay it's clear that nobody even touched him. He just messed up.[/QUOTE]

That is the definition of confirmation bias and an indictment on all the refs for conspiring to ref Durant differently than other players.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DsEkCY8qPcc[/url]


Durant made a throat slash last night which is forbidden in the NBA. Let's see how the league handles it. If I were a betting man, I would wager they don't do anything.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]So...is your issue that Harden and Durant and I guess...Kobe? get to the line too often compared to other players. Or that Westbrook and Melo and Lebron don't get enough calls?[/QUOTE] I honestly can't say definitively. It seems as though I'm alone in this regard, but I never really come away from an OKC game thinking Durant was gifted with a bunch of undeserved free throws. I do usually think Westbrook gets hacked more than he gets credit for; same with Lebron, Melo, and Kobe.

My main issue was with you not understanding why I've been using FTA/FGA over straight FTA. It's a measurement tool. That's it. There is no "why". You keep trying to compare it against the "why", for which there is simply no comparison.

[QUOTE]I know it's kind of the same thing, but the difference between a guy like Harden and Westbrook, for example, is that Harden plays to get fouled while Westbrook plays to score. Not all of the time, but there is a clear cut difference between playing styles.[/QUOTE] Harden and Durant are better at selling the contact that they get. For me, that's the main reason why they're so much better at getting to the line.

[QUOTE]So doesn't that seem like the biggest factor?[/QUOTE]
Possibly. It's certainly up there.

What - not to be confused with why - makes Durant so much more efficent at getting to the line than Anthony is not the fact that he shoots 1.8 more ft per game, it's that he shoots 1.8 more ft while utilizing fewer of his team's possessions.

[QUOTE=Unstoppabull]Here's a thought. Durant gets so many fouls, is the same reason Harden gets so many foul calls. It's not like James Harden down in Houston is some massively marketable superstar; you can change your game to make people foul you. I believe they both model their game at trying to draw fouls. Oh yea not to mention Harden's a better flopper than any of them.

It does make sense tho. People will generally play off of LeBron more often, to stop his drives to the rim. [B]No one will want to foul LeBron when he drives to the rim because they know it's a fruitless attempt;[/B] he's going to finish through that little contact anyways. It's not as simple as seeing who gets more shots at the rim to determine how many FT's they are allotted.

However when playing Durant, players tend to play him much tighter. One, he is actually a dangerous outside shooter, and two, he is much softer and weaker. One reason he gets more calls than Lebron and Carmelo is because he's weaker. This way, when he's fouled, it's a lot easier to spot. You'll see big guys like Lebron get hacked by some guard and it won't affect them at all; they just power through as if they were untouched. With Durant however, he's physically moved and you can clearly see the change to his shot. Basically, it's really difficult to miss a foul on Durant because it bothers him so much. Also, his arms are like giant squid tentacles, they flail around a lot, so it's really easy to hit them. In short, Risking the foul on Durant is much more effective than just letting him shoot.[/QUOTE]

Great post.

My only disagreement is with the bolded. Lebron gets hacked all the time going to the rim. Maybe they don't want to, but they do.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
People did the same thing with MJ...they bitched an bitched and bitched about his free throws.
[/QUOTE]

MJ wasn't all that great at getting to the line though. For his time he was great in that regard, but guys like Harden and Durant are a couple steps above.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]I honestly can't say definitively. It seems as though I'm alone in this regard, but I never really come away from an OKC game thinking Durant was gifted with a bunch of undeserved free throws. I do usually think Westbrook gets hacked more than he gets credit for; same with Lebron, Melo, and Kobe.

My main issue was with you not understanding why I've been using FTA/FGA over straight FTA. It's a measurement tool. That's it. There is no "why". You keep trying to compare it against the "why", for which there is simply no comparison.

Harden and Durant are better at selling the contact that they get. For me, that's the main reason why they're so much better at getting to the line.


Possibly. It's certainly up there.

What - not to be confused with why - makes Durant so much more efficent at getting to the line than Anthony is not the fact that he shoots 1.8 more ft per game, it's that he shoots 1.8 more ft while utilizing fewer of his team's possessions.



Great post.

My only disagreement is with the bolded. Lebron gets hacked all the time going to the rim. Maybe they don't want to, but they do.



MJ wasn't all that great at getting to the line though. For his time he was great in that regard, but guys like Harden and Durant are a couple steps above.[/QUOTE]

So you just agree with me. Got it.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41][B]So you just agree with me.[/B] Got it.[/QUOTE]

On which matters?

On everything.

You don't think fga determines fta...and you don't think Durant gets an inordinate amount of phantom calls.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]On everything.

[B]You don't think fga determines fta...[/B]and you don't think Durant gets an inordinate amount of phantom calls.[/QUOTE]

I agree with those two statements, but the first statement is just a fact.

Why are lebron stans whining like their boy doesnt have any preferential treatment over durant. Look at the finals. Thats how harden disappeared.

[QUOTE=knicksman]Why are lebron stans whining like their boy doesnt have any preferential treatment over durant. Look at the finals. Thats how harden disappeared.[/QUOTE]
Harden blew wide open layups, missed wide open threes, and was generally ineffective. Had nothing to do with "preferential treatment".