Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

[QUOTE=Pushxx]Hondo was one of the most versatile athletes ever.[/QUOTE]

How many guys do you know that got drafted by the NBA and the NFL BOTH?

Hondo was.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]
[B][I]Do you have to be the best player on your team, to be the leader of your team?[/I][/B]

Obviously I'm in the minority once again, when I answer my own question,
[B] 'nope. you don't.'[/B][/QUOTE]



Well, you're absolutely right.



BTW, David Robinson is the most athletic tall guy of all-time.

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]I think 68 is arguable, but I think Hondo was definitely better in Russell's last season.[/QUOTE]

It may be arguable now, as people focus way too much on offensive box score statistics, but it wasn't really arguable back then.

Even Havlicek himself would tell you that.

[QUOTE]"It's a damn shame you have to place so much of a load on one person. They keep saying this guy is the key, that guy is the key. There's only one key

[QUOTE=DatAsh]It may be arguable now, as people focus way too much on offensive box score statistics, but it wasn't really arguable back then.

Even Havlicek himself would tell you that.

[/QUOTE]


There's a level of reverence for Russell that will transcend play on the court. In 1968 I think you're probably right...but I think Russell was noticeably a lesser player and I don't think his defense was anywhere near what it once was...even what it was the year prior.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]I know what you mean about majority opinions. I can think of several presidents I haven't cared for... who were elected by majority opinion. but there's lots of examples in the NBA too:

* Yao Ming was selected as an All Star without even playing, like, any games.
[B]* People think Wade won a ring without any help, the way Nowitzki did.[/B]
[B]* People think Jordan won a ring without any help, the way DJ or Rick Barry did.[/B]

you know? We could do this all day!

[B]* People think Kobe Bryant was never the best player in the NBA.[/B]
[B]* People think Javale McGee is the most athletic tall guy of all time.[/B]
[B]* People think Oscar Robertson was better than Magic Johnson.[/B]
[B]* People think the referees never shave points even after a referee was incarcerated for shaving points..... and they apparently thought it was just a coincidence that after that there were enormous rules changes about speaking to referees so no hint of scandal would be allowed.[/B]
[B]* People think Carmelo Anthony is a better offensive player than KB or Durant ever were.[/B]

[I]People who weren't even born yet and never saw a game from the '83 season... think Julius Erving was the best player on the Sixers ring team. Even never heard of "FO FO FO" [/I]
[/QUOTE]

I agree with the majority opinion not always being right, but this was a very large majority opinion.

Also, the bolded definitely were not/ are not majority opinions, and all star voting has more to do with popularity than it does people picking the players they actually think are the best.

[QUOTE]

Now that one is interesting... possibly even worth a thread.

[B][I]Do you have to be the best player on your team, to be the leader of your team?[/I][/B]

Obviously I'm in the minority once again, when I answer my own question,
[B] 'nope. you don't.'[/B][/QUOTE]

Agreed

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]There's a level of reverence for Russell that will transcend play on the court. In 1968 I think you're probably right...but I think Russell was noticeably a lesser player and I don't think his defense was anywhere near what it once was...even what it was the year prior.[/QUOTE]

Based on what though? The stats, as well as the opinions of players and coaches at the time, strongly disagree with that. What evidence do you have that's forcing you to ignore all that and come to a different conclusion? The box score stats?

Part of that reverence comes from the older generation who actually saw him play - or played with or against him - and knew that his impact really did transcend his stats.

Also, if you doubt Russell's defensive impact in 1969, consider the fact that the Celtics' DRtg dropped 10 absolute points, 7.4 relative points, and they lost 18.5 defensive win shares when he left.

[CODE]

Year DRtg Place Diff From Mean Diff from 2nd DWS SRS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1969 88.4 1/14 -6.8 -2.8 40.6 +5.35
1970 98.5 7/16 +0.6 +2.3 22.1 -1.59
[/CODE]

Most of those quotes I posted about other players - including Hondo himself - and coaches recognizing Russell as the Celtic's best player were from 1969.

3 times led his team to the nba championship . Averaged 29-8-6 at his peak . And one of the greatest perimeter defender all time .