-
Lebron in the 1990's
What are your thoughts? Who guards him? Would he be better?
I do want to get one thing out of the way. Hand checking doesn't work on a bigger, stronger and faster player. In fact it works to their advantage. Malone and Barkley used it as leverage to spin toward the basket.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
Less rebounds for him for sure and worse FG% with the amount of defensive guys in the league that protected the paint.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGRzk_duhj4[/url]
Remember when Lebron went crying to the media when the Wizards played him physical? 'Nuff said! :oldlol:
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
People focus on offense but imagine a league where he's allowed to play defense more physically. What would you do against him?
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGRzk_duhj4[/url]
Remember when Lebron went crying to the media when the Wizards played him physical? 'Nuff said! :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
And still averaged 30 ppg for the series? They tried to go 90's Pistons on him instead of playing straight up defense and it didn't work. Don't mix up complaining with lack of effectiveness.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=Dave3]And still averaged 30 ppg for the series? They tried to go 90's Pistons on him instead of playing straight up defense and it didn't work. Don't mix up complaining with lack of effectiveness.[/QUOTE]
That Wizards team's physical defense was nothing compared to the Bad Boy Pistons.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]That Wizards team's physical defense was nothing compared to the Bad Boy Pistons.[/QUOTE]
Yeah which is why I said "tried" - they attempted to hack/hit to emulate the Pistons defense, they just lacked the actual defensive ability of the Pistons teams. My point was though that physicality has never been something to deter LeBron's offensive game. He thrives in that type of situation.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=Dave3]Yeah which is why I said "tried" - they attempted to hack/hit to emulate the Pistons defense, they just lacked the actual defensive ability of the Pistons teams. My point was though that physicality has never been something to deter LeBron's offensive game. He thrives in that type of situation.[/QUOTE]
I know. Just looking at where both teams ranked in their defensive years and the defensive players on each respective team, it should be pretty obvious.
James would be a different player in the 90's, IMO. Kinda of a hybrid of Karl Malone and Charles Barkley, which would still be pretty potent.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]I know. Just looking at where both teams ranked in their defensive years and the defensive players on each respective team, it should be pretty obvious.
James would be a different player in the 90's, IMO. Kinda of a hybrid of Karl Malone and Charles Barkley, which would still be pretty potent.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, people always tend to confuse hard fouls in the 90's with better defense. They weren't allowed to just shove guys without foul calls or anything. Fouls back then were called just like they are now. Maybe a flagrant today would've been just a hard foul then, but a foul today would still have been a foul then. I don't think LeBron would have been any worse at all back then. If anything he would have had a slightly more athletic advantage in his younger years.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=Pointguard]What are your thoughts? Who guards him? Would he be better?
I do want to get one thing out of the way. Hand checking doesn't work on a bigger, stronger and faster player. In fact it works to their advantage. Malone and Barkley used it as leverage to spin toward the basket.[/QUOTE]
I want to get one thing out of the way: hand checking works on everyone. It's called physics.
Anyway, Lebron would still be dominant, but he wouldn't be putting up the numbers he is today, especially efficiency-wise (he could certainly average 27/8/6 or whatever on a good team).
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=Pointguard]What are your thoughts? Who guards him? Would he be better?
I do want to get one thing out of the way. Hand checking doesn't work on a bigger, stronger and faster player. In fact it works to their advantage. Malone and Barkley used it as leverage to spin toward the basket.[/QUOTE]
Less rebounds, less assists, less points, lower efficiency.
No hand checking wouldn't work to his advantage. It may have worked on Chuck, but Chuck was a post player that also used his weight and lower base as an advantage. Chuck was also ferocious and much tougher. Lebron just now is starting to scratch the surface on how to play the post. One huge disadvantage he'd have is the paint being far more congested and players much tougher with rules that favored the defense when compared to today's game. He won't be able to just run through the middle like he does today, if he did it would be contested and met with a hard foul.
Coaches wouldn't allow him to dominate the ball as much, and his off the ball game is mediocre.
Not to say he wouldn't get his from time to time, but his opportunities and his efficiency would take a noticeable dip. Still an all star, but I don't think he'd be the player we know him as today.
Bird had a great shot which allowed him to play at a very elite level, along with that was his legendary toughness. Bron doesn't have a great shot, he isn't known to be legendary in the tough department either. Magic a point forward, made quick passes and more importantly dribbled with his back turned which made it harder on the defense. Bron would be awesome on the open court no question about that. I guess it'll depend on the team he plays with. Put him on the Warriors a fast break team and he excels. But put him on a more post oriented team, and he won't be the same Bron we know of today.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
Come on now.... he would be just fine in the 90s, guaranteed not worse than today...
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=Dave3]Yeah, people always tend to confuse hard fouls in the 90's with better defense. They weren't allowed to just shove guys without foul calls or anything. Fouls back then were called just like they are now. Maybe a flagrant today would've been just a hard foul then, but a foul today would still have been a foul then. I don't think LeBron would have been any worse at all back then. If anything he would have had a slightly more athletic advantage in his younger years.[/QUOTE]
The 90's had better interior defense, clearly. You could camp in the paint because the rules allowed, plus they had better defensive centers too. You can say perimeter defense works better too, because it wears down the smaller opponents.
I'm not so sure about a foul today would be a foul back then, with reference of the touch fouls like Durant, Wade, etc.. get with their acting, rip through moves, and all. I don't think it would be called as much back then, it would have to be a harder foul.
James would be a back to the basket player and playing with big men. More or less, he'd still be an all-time great.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=Pointguard]What are your thoughts? Who guards him? Would he be better?
I do want to get one thing out of the way. Hand checking doesn't work on a bigger, stronger and faster player. In fact it works to their advantage. Malone and Barkley used it as leverage to spin toward the basket.[/QUOTE]
Hand checking in the post and hand checking out on the perimeter are two very different things. Malone and Barkley were both *much* better post players, Malone was more of a mid-range fade-away kind of post player( especially as he aged) while Barkley was more explosive around the basket with an assortment of moves under the rim. Hand checking on the perimeter meant the defender is able to pretty much lay his hand on your hip and *guide* you to where he wanted you to go, so it took someone with exceptional driving ability to free themselves from being consistently hand-checked over the course of a game.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=Dave3]Yeah, people always tend to confuse hard fouls in the 90's with better defense. They weren't allowed to just shove guys without foul calls or anything. Fouls back then were called just like they are now. Maybe a flagrant today would've been just a hard foul then, but a foul today would still have been a foul then. I don't think LeBron would have been any worse at all back then. If anything he would have had a slightly more athletic advantage in his younger years.[/QUOTE]
No. fouls today wouldn't have been called the same way.
There are dozens upon dozens of fouls that are called today that wouldn't have been called back then. And it's mostly the tick tack kind that hurt you the most.
But the biggest difference is how a team and player plays due to the rules. Example..
let's say I'm guarding you in today's game. I put my hand check you slightly as you drive, I get a foul called. Next possession, you drive and a man rotates touching you, foul called. That already puts the defense in a tough situation to guard, now you receive less resistance to getting anywhere. Being cautious, I guard you again in the next possession, tick tack touch foul is called on me. Now I can't touch you so my defense on you is extremely handicapped. This happens every game to just about every player.
Let's take this back to the past eras.
Those same possessions won't get called fouls. So that gives me as a defender a bit more freedom to be aggressive. It gives my team the opportunity to play you tougher for extra possessions. These add up during the course of a game, naturally not everything will be allowed, but the rules are already in the defense favor. Now you combine that with the other plays that don't usually get called such as screens, elbows (while in the paint) etc.etc. it wears down the offensive player and gives the defense more freedom.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=pauk]Come on now.... he would be just fine in the 90s, guaranteed not worse than today...[/QUOTE]
He's just learning to post.
He can't move without the ball at all.
His shot has improved, but with more resistance it will take a dip.
The lane will be far more clogged, thus eliminating many of his drives down the lane.
He'd also get fouled more without him getting the calls, which will eliminate some of the fts he gets and give the defense freedom to be more physical.
All of this adds up during the course of a game, the course of a season, the course of a career.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
He would still be dominant. Come on, what is this? Getting hit doesn't do anything to him and really never has since he's so big. You really think he'd be worse than Barkley? I doubt that. Remember, zone defenses weren't allowed back then which is how the Spurs completely shut young-lebron down. I'm guessing he would still be top 2 or 3 in the league behind Jordan and Prime Chuck/Shaq/Hakeem depending on the year.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
He'd be better than Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, (young) Kobe, etc. but Jordan and Shaq would still be better players.
It would be a lot more physical with better centers back then too.
He'd still be a top player obviously. Basketball is still basketball it's not like things have changed *that* much.
I think the game changed *a lot* in the 1970s, was refined in the 80s, and sort of leveled off in the 90s.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=pauk]Come on now.... he would be just fine in the 90s, guaranteed not worse than today...[/QUOTE]
His efficiency would certainly be worse. He could, however, put up 27-30/7-9 reb/5-7 ast on any team. He would be similarly dominant, but not AS dominant.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=andgar923]He's just learning to post.
He can't move without the ball at all.
His shot has improved, but with more resistance it will take a dip.
The lane will be far more clogged, thus eliminating many of his drives down the lane.
He'd also get fouled more without him getting the calls, which will eliminate some of the fts he gets and give the defense freedom to be more physical.
All of this adds up during the course of a game, the course of a season, the course of a career.[/QUOTE]
Just now learning the post because he came into the league when it was already a slashing league rather than post.
He would probably learn how to move without the ball since he wouldn't be brought up in a league consisting primarily of ISOs and where ball movement was a bigger part of the culture. I actually think he would've been a more complete player if he came in the league in the 90s cause he woulda started with a more fundamental base rather than 1 on 5 offense on the Cavs.
His shot has improved but was never why he was dominant anyway.
The lane is much more clogged now since zones are legal.
MJ still got freethrows...so would Lebron.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=Soundwave]He'd be better than Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, (young) Kobe, etc. but Jordan and Shaq would still be better players.
It would be a lot more physical with better centers back then too.
He'd still be a top player obviously. Basketball is still basketball it's not like things have changed *that* much.
I think the game changed *a lot* in the 1970s, was refined in the 80s, and sort of leveled off in the 90s.[/QUOTE]
It has changed enough to make a difference.
The game is more perimeter oriented due to the rule changes that encourage perimeter scoring and punish the defense.
There's also less ball movement today with far more one on one, which helps perimeter players statistically. If you saw the clip that was posted in which MJ got a triple double in 21 minutes, you'd see how he didn't dominate the ball like Bron and most of today's players do today. That was how the game was played back then, can you imagine Bron having the same stats if he didn't have it in his hands as often? they'd probably take a slight dip.
The lane being clogged was a huge deterrent for offensive players back then.
So yeah, the game has changed enough to make a difference when you combine all of this plus more factors that I may have missed.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
Lebron would have developed a post game much sooner. His efficiency would be lower. I agree some people here think that they didn't call fouls or they allowed guys to just fight back in the 90's. Not true. It was more physical, but it was not some stupid playground garbage. Lebron is a big guy, but he's really not that physical, he tries to avoid contact. He would still be very good, but would not stand out like he does today.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=Duncan21formvp]Less rebounds for him for sure and worse FG% with the amount of defensive guys in the league that protected the paint.[/QUOTE]
More like 31/8/8 on 56-57 FG%, 42 3-pt%, 2 steals per game.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=andgar923]
Coaches wouldn't allow him to dominate the ball as much, and his off the ball game is mediocre.[/QUOTE]
This is something I agree with and the biggest difference I believe, though I agree about the paint being more clogged. I also don't think he'd have attempted anywhere five threes like he was in Cleveland, probably always closer to the amount he's been shooting in Miami.
I don't know if he'd be more or less dominant, but it's obvious he'd still be among the game's best players, and at certain points, more later in the decade, he'd probably be the best in the game, imo.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
I think the biggest difference would be the presence of a rim protector more often, because of the lack of def 3 sec rule and the league having more of them.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]That Wizards team's physical defense was nothing compared to the Bad Boy Pistons.[/QUOTE]
This
The Wizards had no one that was in Laimbeer, Mahorn, Rodman and Salley level of nastiness, not even close...
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
30-34 yr old Dominique Wilkins avg. 26-30ppg/ 6-9rpg from '90-'94. Please tell me why a prime Lebron would be any worse than that.
My generation is turning into our parents. They always told us stories of how every single thing they did was harder "back in the day." They had to "walk uphill in the snow with no shoes" to go everywhere. We are doing the same thing. Now we are acting like every star today would lose 5ppg, 2rpg, 1apg, and 3-5% points off their fg% because everything was "so tough" just 20 years ago. It's like all 82 games were played against the '89 Pistons or the '92 Knicks, or fouls weren't called if there wasn't blood when we know that's not true. We need to stop that.
There were good defensive teams and flat horrible and scrub teams defensively also. I remember complaining about superstars getting touch fouls called in their favor, and even remember other players complaining about the touch, questionable fouls that superstars were benefiting from.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=jlip]30-34 yr old Dominique Wilkins avg. 26-30ppg/ 6-9rpg from '90-'94. Please tell me why a prime Lebron would be any worse than that.[/QUOTE]
He wouldn't, and he's obviously the vastly superior passer, ball-handler and defender. Although I wouldn't say Nique's age is relevant because he was a better player than ever in the early 90's, especially '93. Smarter and more under control with more range on his jumper.
I see Lebron scoring anywhere from 25-30 depending on his team, anywhere from 6-8 boards(more size in the paint and less missed shots might bring his rebounds down slightly) and 6 or so assists if he was scoring close to 30, not because he wasn't capable of more, but because I'm not sure he'd be as ball-dominant. Though that's on a good team, and we have to consider the faster pace, and Lebron has always been unstoppable in transition. He'd get his easy baskets, and make some great passes that didn't rely on him being ball-dominant.
So 27-28 ppg with 7-8 rpg and 7-8 apg isn't far-fetched, imo. It all depends on the team.
[QUOTE=andgar923]
I think his game would be a mixture of Clyde and Nique. Somewhere along those two.[/QUOTE]
He's a better ball-handler than both, and a lot stronger/heavier, plus he's easily the best defender of the 3. A much better passer than Nique too, and still a better passer than Clyde, though the gap isn't as large because Drexler was a great passer.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=jlip]30-34 yr old Dominique Wilkins avg. 26-30ppg/ 6-9rpg from '90-'94. Please tell me why a prime Lebron would be any worse than that.
My generation is turning into our parents. They always told us stories of how every single thing they did was harder "back in the day." They had to "walk uphill in the snow with no shoes" to go everywhere. We are doing the same thing. Now we are acting like every star today would lose 5ppg, 2rpg, 1apg, and 3-5% points off their fg% because everything was "so tough" just 20 years ago. It's like all 82 games were played against the '89 Pistons or the '92 Knicks, or fouls weren't called if there wasn't blood when we know that's not true. We need to stop that.
There were good defensive teams and flat horrible and scrub teams defensively also. I remember complaining about superstars getting touch fouls called in their favor, and even remember other players complaining about the touch, questionable fouls that superstars were benefiting from.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
Lol at the people acting like Lebron wouldn't get calls. He'd actually get more. Also what exactly is stopping Lebron from straight up dunking on the C whos standing in the key? Lebron would yam on any wannabe big man trying to anchor
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=jlip]30-34 yr old Dominique Wilkins avg. 26-30ppg/ 6-9rpg from '90-'94. Please tell me why a prime Lebron would be any worse than that.
My generation is turning into our parents. They always told us stories of how every single thing they did was harder "back in the day." They had to "walk uphill in the snow with no shoes" to go everywhere. We are doing the same thing. Now we are acting like every star today would lose 5ppg, 2rpg, 1apg, and 3-5% points off their fg% because everything was "so tough" just 20 years ago. It's like all 82 games were played against the '89 Pistons or the '92 Knicks, or fouls weren't called if there wasn't blood when we know that's not true. We need to stop that.
There were good defensive teams and flat horrible and scrub teams defensively also. I remember complaining about superstars getting touch fouls called in their favor, and even remember other players complaining about the touch, questionable fouls that superstars were benefiting from.[/QUOTE]
Nique played in the paint, Bron not so much
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=andgar923]Nique played in the paint, Bron not so much
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
The 90's had shitty wings. He would be just fine.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]
He's a better ball-handler than both, and a lot stronger/heavier, plus he's easily the best defender of the 3. A much better passer than Nique too, and still a better passer than Clyde, though the gap isn't as large because Drexler was a great passer.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but you misunderstood what I meant.
I mentioned he'd be a mixture due to their styles.
If you watch Clyde and Bron they have a similar way in which they play. They both sorta put their head down and drive the same, they both have similar face up game, not very diverse might I add. The Nique comparison is due to their size and some of their athleticism, and form (shooting form, dribbling, some moves etc.) If you watch them move, it can be eerily similar in the way they move, jump, attack. Even their spin moves are very similar.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
Dominique is probably the most underrated player on this forum.
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
[QUOTE=andgar923]Nique played in the paint, Bron not so much
-
Re: Lebron in the 1990's
For the first half of the 90's, at least, he would be a superior player statistically. Defenses were weaker and the game was a little faster. Overall though, the game has barely changed since. LeBron would still kick just as much ass, if not more so, given that the wing talent was weaker back then.