Who do you think was better, and why?
Printable View
Who do you think was better, and why?
Id take Pippen, but as of right now i dont have any stats/facts to back me up :lol
Scottie, and it really isn't close. Havlicek is quite overrated. People for whatever reason have him in the top 20-25 range but he should honestly be in the 30-35 range.
Pippen
Best perimeter defender of all time.. One of the best all around player that ever play the game of basketball.. Absolutely no weakness at all..
Career wise, HONDO. Peak wise HONDO! Pip was a beast and frankly combined traits of Hondo with the size and freakish athletic ability of Dr.J. But I think Hondo was a better number one option than Pippen. While also being a point forward type, great defender, and great rebounder for a SF. Hondo was in my book the first EPIC ALL AROUND SF in terms of being a great scorer, great passer, great rebounder, and great defender all in one. He set the tone that guys like Pip, Hill, and Bron would follow later. And considering he was 6'5 or 6'6 and a swingman, he even sort of set the tone for bigger SG's like MJ, Kobe, and Drexler in that regard as well.
[QUOTE=bizil]Career wise, HONDO. Peak wise HONDO! Pip was a beast and frankly combined traits of Hondo with the size and freakish athletic ability of Dr.J. But I think Hondo was a better number one option than Pippen. While also being a point forward type, great defender, and great rebounder for a SF. Hondo was in my book the first EPIC ALL AROUND SF in terms of being a great scorer, great passer, great rebounder, and great defender all in one. He set the tone that guys like Pip, Hill, and Bron would follow later. And considering he was 6'5 or 6'6 and a swingman, he even sort of set the tone for bigger SG's like MJ, Kobe, and Drexler in that regard as well.[/QUOTE]
Just to say if he was being listed today it'd be more like 6'7 or 6'8
Havlicek.
[QUOTE=jongib369]Just to say if he was being listed today it'd be more like 6'7 or 6'8[/QUOTE]
Yes he would indeed. The heights back in the day were more legit than today. In comparison to other legendary SF's in the 60's and 70's like Barry or a SF-PF type like Baylor or Hawkins, Hondo just seemed to have the total package on both sides of the court to standout. Not saying peak value wise he's better than them, but his career resume is what vaults Hondo past them in that top 3-4 GOAT SF realm.
Havlicek was never really an alpha dog, he just had crazy longevity. I'll take a peak Rick Barry or Walt Frazier over Hondo anyday & some might not know this, but Dave Cowens was actually Boston's best player during those two championship seasons in the 70's.
As far Hondo vs Pippen... I really don't know. They are in the same category, but I would want Pippen on my team.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Havlicek was never really an alpha dog[/QUOTE]
1974
[QUOTE=LAClipsFan33]1974[/QUOTE]
Cowens > Havlicek in 1974.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Havlicek was never really an alpha dog, he just had crazy longevity. I'll take a peak Rick Barry or Walt Frazier over Hondo anyday & some might not know this, but Dave Cowens was actually Boston's best player during those two championship seasons in the 70's.
As far Hondo vs Pippen... I really don't know. They are in the same category, but I would want Pippen on my team.[/QUOTE]
Hondo's career resume dictates that he's rated over Barry or Frazier GOAT wise. Now peak value wise is a different argument. In terms of being an alpha dog, I feel Hondo was indeed an alpha dog. He just wasn't on the level of Barry or Baylor that came before him in that regard. Or later Bird or Dr. J If u racking up 28.9 points in season as well as 27.5 points, then u gotta have alpha dog stuff. Hondo was MUCH more of an alpha dog than Pip ever was that's for sure.
It's common knowledge Big Dave was the man in the 70's. Hondo, while still an elite SF, was on the downside of his career. I think it was pretty common knowledge who the number one guy was. But still, Hondo was the leading scorer on that '74 title team.
When comparing players in different eras, ultimately it can be hard. But I feel Hondo dominated his era more than Pippen did on an individual level. U had many legendary SF's, swingmen, or SF-PF type players in Hondo's era. His total all around skills combined with his scoring made him standout. In terms of peak value, I would take Baylor and Barry over Hondo SF wise. U even had guys like Hawkins and Cunnigham who were awesome. But it's Hondo's resume that vaults him past all these SF's GOAT wise.
[QUOTE=bizil]If u racking up 28.9 points in season as well as 27.5 points, then u gotta have alpha dog stuff.[/QUOTE]
He played 45 MPG & was on a team that played at a much faster pace than a normal team in today's NBA. Not saying that averaging 28 ppg isn't impressive because it is, just saying it is not as impressive as the numbers suggest. Overall, Hondo was never really an elite scorer.
I do agree with you that Hondo did dominate his era more than Pippen did to his era and that might make me rank Hondo ahead of Pippen on an all-time list, but I still would rather have Pippen on my team.
60% of ISH posters never watched Pippen play (forget about Havlicek).
[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]Scottie, and it really isn't close. Havlicek is quite overrated. People for whatever reason have him in the top 20-25 range but he should honestly be in the 30-35 range.[/QUOTE]
Big difference :rolleyes:
Close but Hondo
Havlicek was the best player on 4 title teams which were the 68,69,74, and 76 Celtics. He was one of the best defenders at his position annually and a better scorer than Pippen with better longevity. In the early 70's a lot of people felt he was the best all-around player in the league as Havlicek could do just about anything on the court. And for those who like to talk rings well 8>6.
Scottie Pippen :pimp:
[QUOTE=chains5000]60% of ISH posters never watched Pippen play (forget about Havlicek).[/QUOTE]
Exactly. And if you asked this question in 2002, everyone would have said Havlicek. Pippen is becoming very overrated by a generation of posters that live on hearsay and youtube highlights.
John Havlicek was a better version of Scottie Pippen before Pippen ever existed. The fact that threads like this exist really piss me off. Hondo is becoming over-looked, as are other stars pre-1990. I'm not meaning to detract from Scottie, but he really only had a short peak, and never dominated offensively to the extent that Havlicek did. Havlicek was seen as one of the best wing defenders ever, and was an NBA ironman in terms of games played, and minutes played. His longevity is impressive as well. As a 36 year old, he averaged 17.7ppg, 4.8rpg, 5.1apg. He and the ageing Celtics took Dr J's 76ers to 7 games, 1 game away from the ECF.
Havlicek won titles in different eras, as the number 2, and as the number 1 in 1974 (don't listen to 87 Lakers - Hondo was clearly the lead dog. Stats back it up with the fact that he led the team in PER, WS, and he was the finals MVP).
Pippen has no individual awards to his name other than an All-Star MVP, and was never a top dog on a championship team - also consider how weak the east was in 1993-94.
[QUOTE=Kews1]Id take Pippen, but as of right now i dont have any stats/facts to back me up :lol[/QUOTE]
Damn, how can you call yourself a Celtics fan and take Pippen? I swear fans these days are getting stupider.
[QUOTE=Raz]Damn, how can you call yourself a Celtics fan and take Pippen? I swear fans these days are getting stupider.[/QUOTE]
Pippen was a monster c'monson.
-Smak
[QUOTE=nycelt84][B]Havlicek was the best player on 4 title teams which were the 68,69,74, and 76 Celtics.[/B] He was one of the best defenders at his position annually and a better scorer than Pippen with better longevity. In the early 70's a lot of people felt he was the best all-around player in the league as Havlicek could do just about anything on the court. And for those who like to talk rings well 8>6.[/QUOTE]
Well the bolded is just flat out wrong. He was the best player on exactly one title team ('69), with one being debatable ('74). Russ was still the best in '68, and Cowens in '76.
But you're right about scoring. Hondo was a significantly better scorer than Pip because his jumper was much more consistent. He could be a go to guy in crunch time when you needed a bucket. Pippen was better defensively and a better rebounder.
Ultimately, they deserve to be pretty close in any GOAT rankings, but I would certainly take Hondo.
Pippen
I've never seen Havlicek play and I haven't seen Havlicek play against the types of players Pippen faced.
[QUOTE=Raz]Exactly. And if you asked this question in 2002, everyone would have said Havlicek. Pippen is becoming very overrated by a generation of posters that live on hearsay and youtube highlights.
John Havlicek was a better version of Scottie Pippen before Pippen ever existed. [B]The fact that threads like this exist really piss me off[/B]. Hondo is becoming over-looked, as are other stars pre-1990. I'm not meaning to detract from Scottie, but he really only had a short peak, and never dominated offensively to the extent that Havlicek did. Havlicek was seen as one of the best wing defenders ever, and was an NBA ironman in terms of games played, and minutes played. His longevity is impressive as well. As a 36 year old, he averaged 17.7ppg, 4.8rpg, 5.1apg. He and the ageing Celtics took Dr J's 76ers to 7 games, 1 game away from the ECF.
Havlicek won titles in different eras, as the number 2, and as the number 1 in 1974 (don't listen to 87 Lakers - Hondo was clearly the lead dog. Stats back it up with the fact that he led the team in PER, WS, and he was the finals MVP).
Pippen has no individual awards to his name other than an All-Star MVP, and was never a top dog on a championship team - also consider how weak the east was in 1993-94.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that a bit extreme? One guy doesn't completely outclass the other (even though I'd go Havlicek without much hesitation), so the conversation shouldn't be that bad.
[QUOTE=oolalaa]
But you're right about scoring. Hondo was a significantly better scorer than Pip because his jumper was much more consistent. He could be a go to guy in crunch time when you needed a bucket. Pippen was better defensively and a better rebounder.
Ultimately, they deserve to be pretty close in any GOAT rankings, but I would certainly take Hondo.[/QUOTE]
Pip was better defensively but not by much like some may think, Hondo was also an amazing defensive player. Passing and rebounding Pip is also a bit above and yes Hondo was the better scorer and more clutch.
[QUOTE=swi7ch]Pippen
I've never seen Havlicek play and I haven't seen Havlicek play against the types of players Pippen faced.[/QUOTE]
negged
[quote=Patrick Chewing]negged[/quote]
negged
I've never seen John Havlicek play, so I can't comment. What's sad is that most of the posters haven't even seen Hornacek play, let alone Havlicek. LOL @ people not in their 40's commenting on this.
[QUOTE=fpliii]Isn't that a bit extreme? One guy doesn't completely outclass the other (even though I'd go Havlicek without much hesitation), so the conversation shouldn't be that bad.[/QUOTE]
Yes the conversation is that bad.
It would be like me trying to convince people that Manu Ginobili should be ranked above Clyde Drexler. There is a significant gap.
I'm not talking about transferring each other to different decades, Pippen was extremely athletic and he would wreck havoc in the 60's and 70's.
And to the people saying Pippen was the better rebounder and passer, are you aware that Hondo averaged 9rpg and 7.5apg in the same season to go with his 28.9ppg. This is the list of players to put up stats like that:
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=28&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=9&c3stat=ast_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=7&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws"]Hondo is a beast[/URL]
He was basically the GOAT wing defender before Pippen, and he set the bench mark for all big wing players.
The over-appreciation for Scottie Pippen is horrible. He had such a short peak, and Havlicek dominated over two decades.
[QUOTE=Raz]Yes the conversation is that bad.
It would be like me trying to convince people that Manu Ginobili should be ranked above Clyde Drexler. There is a significant gap.
I'm not talking about transferring each other to different decades, [B]Pippen was extremely athletic and he would wreck havoc in the 60's and 70's. [/B]
And to the people saying Pippen was the better rebounder and passer, are you aware that Hondo averaged 9rpg and 7.5apg in the same season to go with his 28.9ppg. This is the list of players to put up stats like that:
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=28&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=9&c3stat=ast_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=7&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws"]Hondo is a beast[/URL]
He was basically the GOAT wing defender before Pippen, and he set the bench mark for all big wing players.
The over-appreciation for Scottie Pippen is horrible. He had such a short peak, and Havlicek dominated over two decades.[/QUOTE]
Let's not exaggerate. Even if you plucked him from the 90's Pippen wouldn't end up wreaking any more havoc than a player like say, Gus Johnson. Pippen doesn't offer any more than Gus aside from passing. He was even considered the best all-around defender at that time. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwPtBV4TsdU[/url]
And yet a player like Havlicek was still considered better.
Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game. His dominance with his perimeter D and his ability to make plays, handle the ball, and set up plays is something that has yet to be matched. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see him be the #1 option for more than a year and a half. He put up I think 22/9/6/3/1 in '94. He also had a season of 21/7/7 with Mike.
[QUOTE=D.J.]Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game. His dominance with his perimeter D and his ability to make plays, handle the ball, and set up plays is something that has yet to be matched. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see him be the #1 option for more than a year and a half. He put up I think 22/9/6/3/1 in '94. He also had a season of 21/7/7 with Mike.[/QUOTE]
And Havlicek well surpassed those numbers. He was arguably the best wing defender of his generation, was a number one option on offense, got players involved at a better rate than Pippen, and he could actually shoot consistently.
Havlicek is one of the best all-around players we have ever seen, and he did it over such a long period. Pippen had a small window of dominant play.
[QUOTE=Raz]And Havlicek well surpassed those numbers.[/QUOTE]
In much more playing time. He had back to back seasons playing 45 MPG and had 5 straight seasons playing over 40 MPG. Pippen as a Bull never played in more than 38.6 MPG.
[QUOTE]He was arguably the best wing defender of his generation[/QUOTE]
Of his generation, but Pippen is the best perimeter defender [B]EVER[/B].
[QUOTE]was a number one option on offense[/QUOTE]
No one was an option ahead of Mike. And who do you think was the #1 option when Mike left? Sure wasn't Horace Grant or B.J. Armstrong.
[QUOTE]got players involved at a better rate than Pippen[/QUOTE]
Multiple players on the '94 Bulls had career years with Pippen leading the way.
[QUOTE]and he could actually shoot consistently.[/QUOTE]
Such a consistent shooter he shot less than 44% for his career and only 45-46% in his prime. Pippen shot 49% in '94 and never less than 46% until '98. He's also a career 47% shooter.
[QUOTE]Havlicek is one of the best all-around players we have ever seen, and he did it over such a long period. Pippen had a small window of dominant play.[/QUOTE]
Again, we don't penalize Pippen because he played with Jordan. And we saw what he could do as the #1 option.
[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing]negged[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=swi7ch]negged[/QUOTE]
Negged :pimp:
[COLOR="White"]Just kidding.[/COLOR]
[QUOTE=D.J.]In much more playing time. He had back to back seasons playing 45 MPG and had 5 straight seasons playing over 40 MPG. Pippen as a Bull never played in more than 38.6 MPG.[/QUOTE]
So he is going to be penalized for being an ironman? Pippen didn't play that many minutes, and his career was still shorter, shittier and without the same peak.
[QUOTE]
Of his generation, but Pippen is the best perimeter defender [B]EVER[/B].[/QUOTE]
I'm going to go ahead an say that Pippen was the better defender, but I to say he is the best ever is debatable.
[QUOTE]No one was an option ahead of Mike. And who do you think was the #1 option when Mike left? Sure wasn't Horace Grant or B.J. Armstrong.[/QUOTE]
So why didn't he put up higher scoring numbers if he was so great as a number one option?
[QUOTE]Multiple players on the '94 Bulls had career years with Pippen leading the way.[/QUOTE]
The fact that they were Jordan-less and played more like a team may have something to do with that.
[QUOTE]Such a consistent shooter he shot less than 44% for his career and only 45-46% in his prime. Pippen shot 49% in '94 and never less than 46% until '98. He's also a career 47% shooter.[/QUOTE]
Different eras. Havlicek never had the benefit of playing with a 3 point line. Perimeter players FG% rose after the introduction of the 3 point line.
[QUOTE]
Again, we don't penalize Pippen because he played with Jordan. And we saw what he could do as the #1 option.[/QUOTE]
As a number 1 option, he is still far behind the kind of output we saw from Havlicek.
[QUOTE=Raz]So he is going to be penalized for being an ironman? Pippen didn't play that many minutes, and his career was still shorter, shittier and without the same peak.[/QUOTE]
You lost all credibility when you called Pippen's career shittier.
[QUOTE]I'm going to go ahead an say that Pippen was the better defender, but I to say he is the best ever is debatable.[/QUOTE]
He is the GOAT perimeter defender. That's not debatable.
[QUOTE]So why didn't he put up higher scoring numbers if he was so great as a number one option?[/QUOTE]
Because he had other responsibilities. He had to take an even larger role on D and had to set up for his teammates. 22 PPG considering he had larger responsibilities in other areas is pretty damn good. He was averaging just under 9 RPG, almost 6 APG, and 3 SPG. How many points did you expect from him, 30?
[QUOTE]The fact that they were Jordan-less and played more like a team may have something to do with that.[/QUOTE]
Or the fact that Pippen played a large role in guys like Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong having career years. Not to mention Armstrong was an All-Star, deservedly or not.
[QUOTE]Different eras. Havlicek never had the benefit of playing with a 3 point line. Perimeter players FG% rose after the introduction of the 3 point line.[/QUOTE]
He did start shooting threes on a somewhat consistent basis until '95. And during the first 3-peat, he very seldom shot threes.
[QUOTE]As a number 1 option, he is still far behind the kind of output we saw from Havlicek.[/QUOTE]
Bring Havlicek down to 36-37 MPG and we'll see how his output looks.
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Let's not exaggerate. Even if you plucked him from the 90's Pippen wouldn't end up wreaking any more havoc than a player like say, Gus Johnson. [B]Pippen doesn't offer any more than Gus aside from passing[/B]. He was even considered the best all-around defender at that time. [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwPtBV4TsdU[/url]
And yet a player like Havlicek was still considered better.[/QUOTE]
That and maybe 10 inches in vert. lol
-Smak
[QUOTE=D.J.]You lost all credibility when you called Pippen's career shittier.
[/QUOTE]
How is it not? Where is Pippen's finals MVP? Where is Pippen's championship without Jordan?
Hondo won with Russell, who is Jordan's caliber. He also won with Dave Cowens. Pippen couldn't win with Olajuwon and Barkley or those stacked Blazers teams. He had prime Bob Sura like numbers on those Blazer teams, and you want to compare him to Havlicek?
Stupid.
[QUOTE]He is the GOAT perimeter defender. That's not debatable.[/QUOTE]
You're stating your opinion as fact. Bring some evidence.
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=hillgr01"]Pippen "shutting down" Grant Hill[/URL]
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=mullich01"]Pippen "shutting down" Chris Mullin - take note of the match-ups pre-Indiana Pacers[/URL]
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=wilkido01"]Pippen "shutting down" Nique[/URL]
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=birdla01"]Pippen "shutting down" Larry Bird[/URL]
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=robingl01"]Pippen "shutting down" Glenn Robinson[/URL]
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=cebalce01"]Even Ceballos averaged over 20ppg per 36 minutes on Pippen[/URL]
The only player I could find that Pippen actually limited was Glen Rice. WOW!
[QUOTE][B]Because he had other responsibilities.[/B] He had to take an even larger role on D and had to set up for his teammates. 22 PPG considering he had larger responsibilities in other areas is pretty damn good. He was averaging just under 9 RPG, almost 6 APG, and 3 SPG. How many points did you expect from him, 30?[/QUOTE]
So he wasn't as well-rounded and dominant as Havlicek. Hondo could do it all. I guess Pippen couldn't. I would expect a player like Pippen, held in such high regard, would average at least 25ppg without MJ. He didn't come close.
[QUOTE]Or the fact that Pippen played a large role in guys like Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong having career years. Not to mention Armstrong was an All-Star, deservedly or not.[/QUOTE]
So it's not on those players being in their respective primes? Grant had basically the same stats with Penny and Shaq. If they played better it wasn't because of Pippen, it was because they had more opportunity to shine without Jordan around.
[QUOTE]He did start shooting threes on a somewhat consistent basis until '95. And during the first 3-peat, he very seldom shot threes.[/QUOTE]
Obviously, you can't comprehend what I'm saying. Havlicek took some long jumpers, and they were not accredited as 3 pointers, because they didn't exist. They also didn't call ticky tack fouls in the 60's and 70's, meaning you could get fouled on jumpers and nothing would be called. The floor was also crammed due to a lack of spacing from having no 3 point line.
[QUOTE]
Bring Havlicek down to 36-37 MPG and we'll see how his output looks.[/QUOTE]
Why should he be penalized for being an ironman? Pippen was unable to play such large minutes, it was unheard of for a player to average 45 mpg in the 90's.
[QUOTE=D.J.]Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game.[/QUOTE]
I hope this is just a huge exaggeration and not something you actually believe.
[QUOTE=ILLsmak]That and maybe 10 inches in vert. lol
-Smak[/QUOTE]
Pippen doesn't have "10 inches of vert." on Gus lol, if anything he's got a few inches less (that he makes up for in wingspan and reach).