With him, Howard, Nash and Gasol in same team? Man, not making the playoffs with those 4 stars in the same team is probably a bigger accomplishment than winning the championship with Shaq.
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With him, Howard, Nash and Gasol in same team? Man, not making the playoffs with those 4 stars in the same team is probably a bigger accomplishment than winning the championship with Shaq.
agreed. would be a huuge blow
It would shut all the discussion of Kobe and Jordan up. And probably him being the best Laker of All-Time as well, that's still Magic and we're only going by on-court and not off-the-court contributions.
He'll take a dip in people's All-Time ranking too when younger superstars catches up on him; i.e. LeBron, who's already at his footsteps.
It doesn't take away what he accomplished in his career though. It's one of the more controversial legacies in NBA history so he'll be talked about for decades.
Well, the stans would fall back on the "it's his 17th year" excuse and would claim a prime Kobe would push this team into the postseason by anchoring a stronger team defense.
Even though his stats are prime-esque, :lol
Hurts his legacy. Probably not much since Kobe was never a first fiddle in the first place. Kobe's legacy has been built largely through longevity alone. It doesn't take away from his achievement of performing at this level in his 17th season.
He has been carried to multiple championships on the backs of his bigs. Now that his front line this year is not as great as the Shaq/Prime Gasol years, Lakers success is suffering.
Just looking at Kobe's shooting stats after his bigs went down
Kobe has been constantly ranked as a top 4-10 player, I personally think he is around top 15-20.
I think his legacy is pretty safe with the 5 rings and more than a dozen years of great play. This extremely disappointing season doesn't erase those years and rings. Besides, I don't see why people would look at Kobe given how he's played and place the blame on him given all of the other obvious factors.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I think his legacy is pretty safe with the 5 rings and more than a dozen years of great play. This extremely disappointing season doesn't erase those years and rings. Besides, I don't see why people would look at Kobe given how he's played and place the blame on him given all of the other obvious factors.[/QUOTE]
He takes all the credit when he wins, why not take the blame when he loses?
[QUOTE=noob cake]Hurts his legacy. Probably not much since Kobe was never a first fiddle in the first place. Kobe's legacy has been built largely through longevity alone. It doesn't take away from his achievement of performing at this level in his 17th season.
He has been carried to multiple championships on the backs of his bigs. Now that his front line this year is not as great as the Shaq/Prime Gasol years, Lakers success is suffering.
Just looking at Kobe's shooting stats after his bigs went down
Kobe has been constantly ranked as a top 4-10 player, I personally think he is around top 15-20.[/QUOTE]
This.
[QUOTE=AirFederer]This.[/QUOTE]
Other things can be argued but Kobe is never at and will never be at Jordan's level.
It can be argued that LeBron's legacy is already greater than that of Kobe's.
[QUOTE=DMV2]He takes all the credit when he wins, why not take the blame when he loses?[/QUOTE]
Why not apply credit and blame appropriately based on how he plays? Howard has been injured, used poorly, and has played below even his current potential at both ends. Gasol has also been used poorly, injured, and just terrible. Those were 2 guys who the Lakers really need. And D'Antoni is just a terrible coach. Kobe has been easily their best player and has played better than anyone could have expected. He also adjusted his game when Nash returned. The only part of his game that hasn't been very good is his defense, and that's been the case for several years now. Plus, anyone who thinks he's making the Laker defense worse by himself is kidding themselves.
Besides, he doesn't get all the credit. Most give Shaq more credit for the 3peat, and even when Kobe was the clear cut best player and putting up amazing playoff runs, some still discredit him because of his frontcourt.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Why not apply credit and blame appropriately based on how he plays? Howard has been injured, used poorly, and has played below even his current potential at both ends. Gasol has also been used poorly, injured, and just terrible. Those were 2 guys who the Lakers really need. And D'Antoni is just a terrible coach. Kobe has been easily their best player and has played better than anyone could have expected. He also adjusted his game when Nash returned. The only part of his game that hasn't been very good is his defense, and that's been the case for several years now. Plus, anyone who thinks he's making the Laker defense worse by himself is kidding themselves.[/QUOTE]
Wait so Kobe's poor defense doesn't really make Lakers defense worse?
Wait so Lakers record is due to Gasol/Howard? Because Kobe is putting up solid stats?
kobe got all he could ask for with this team. he's just as much at fault as anyone. maybe the most of them all beacuse he's the leader and go to scorer
a top10 alltime player shouldnt miss the playoffs in their prime
[QUOTE=noob cake]Wait so Kobe's poor defense doesn't make Lakers defense?
Wait so Lakers record is due to Gasol/Howard? Because Kobe is putting up solid stats?[/QUOTE]
I never said that Kobe playing better defense wouldn't help. I just said that he's not the main reason. The primary reason is D'Antoni and a team full of old, slower players who as a whole aren't playing up to their potential defensively, Kobe included, but he's one of many. They'd still suck defensively with any other shooting guard. Hell, they sucked defensively even with a top shot blocker and rebounder. And if Kobe did play harder defensively, it'd likely take away from his offense. It's not just Kobe who does this. Most superstar offensive players do. Kobe has had to put up 30/5/5 and he's played 39 mpg at 34 years old in his 17th season. Expecting him to do much more would be crazy.
And yes, Howard and especially Gasol have performed far below what was expected. Kobe has exceeded expectations.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Why not apply credit and blame appropriately based on how he plays? Howard has been injured, used poorly, and has played below even his current potential at both ends. Gasol has also been used poorly, injured, and just terrible. Those were 2 guys who the Lakers really need. And D'Antoni is just a terrible coach. Kobe has been easily their best player and has played better than anyone could have expected. He also adjusted his game when Nash returned. The only part of his game that hasn't been very good is his defense, and that's been the case for several years now. Plus, anyone who thinks he's making the Laker defense worse by himself is kidding themselves.
Besides, he doesn't get all the credit. Most give Shaq more credit for the 3peat, and even when Kobe was the clear cut best player and putting up amazing playoff runs, some still discredit him because of his frontcourt.[/QUOTE]
Only on this site though that he gets discredited. In the real world and in the media, Kobe's gotten enough credit, even more so than Gasol and at times Shaq(prob because he's not a winf player and people were looking for the new Jordan) too. Kobe was on basketball magazines with captions of "Best basketball player in the world, and he's only 22."
He has definitely gotten enough credit through out his career, which benefited a lot from his big's. His poor performances doesn't get enough criticism in my opinion. I never saw any media personnel blame him for that 2004 Finals lost. He deserves the blame as much as the Pistons deserving credit for that series win.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I never said that Kobe playing better defense wouldn't help. I just said that he's not the main reason. The primary reason is D'Antoni and a team full of old, slower players who as a whole aren't playing up to their potential defensively.[/QUOTE]
they were horrible with Mike Brown as well.
and the celtics and mavs managed to play great defense with old players. lame exuce
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I never said that Kobe playing better defense wouldn't help. I just said that he's not the main reason. The primary reason is D'Antoni and a team full of old, slower players who as a whole aren't playing up to their potential defensively, Kobe included, but he's one of many. They'd still suck defensively with any other shooting guard. Hell, they sucked defensively even with a top shot blocker and rebounder. And if Kobe did play harder defensively, it'd likely take away from his offense. It's not just Kobe who does this. Most superstar offensive players do. Kobe has had to put up 30/5/5 and he's played 39 mpg at 34 years old in his 17th season. Expecting him to do much more would be crazy.
And yes, Howard and especially Gasol have performed far below what was expected. Kobe has exceeded expectations.[/QUOTE]
So Lakers are not performing because they are old, and Kobe can't be blamed because he is also old and putting up good stats? Because he is putting up good stats, he is doing no wrong?
The problem with the premise of your argument is that neither Howard nor Gasol are top 10 greatest of all time. They don't have an extensive of history being carried to multiple championships. Kobe does; just check out the number of FMVP awards compared to the number of championships he has "won." You won't find another player in the TOP 10 GOAT debate with a worse ratio.
On Kobe's defense I found [URL="http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/1/11/3864814/kobe-bryant-is-ruining-kobe-bryants-historic-season"]this to be interesting[/URL]. However, I haven't seen many Laker games this year. If the post above is an accurate description of Kobe lack of effort defensively than I have to agree that he is a huge liability to his defense.
It'll be a little stain on his legacy. He'll still be top 10 in my opinion.
[QUOTE=DMV2]Only on this site though that he gets discredited. In the real world and in the media, Kobe's gotten enough credit, even more so than Gasol and at times Shaq(prob because he's not a winf player and people were looking for the new Jordan) too. Kobe was on basketball magazines with captions of "Best basketball player in the world, and he's only 22."
He has definitely gotten enough credit through out his career, which benefited a lot from his big's. His poor performances doesn't get enough criticism in my opinion. I never saw any media personnel blame him for that 2004 Finals lost. He deserves the blame as much as the Pistons deserving credit for that series win.[/QUOTE]
Kobe deserves more credit than Gasol because he was the Lakers best player. Gasol got a lot of credit for his contributions, although he hasn't been given a pass since, and I'd say he has become underappreciated. Not that there's much to appreciate about his play this year, though.
Kobe seldom got more credit than Shaq during those years. From some, maybe, but the majority recognized that Shaq was the man on the Lakers, especially opposing coaches, GMs, players as well as Phil himself. This is one of the reasons Kobe wanted to win without Shaq.
He got a ton of blame for the '04 finals, Kobe was heavily criticized throughout '04 and '05. The reason most don't bring it up now is because Kobe won 2 more rings. Everyone has failures, but most people recognize the successes more, and rightfully so. You can't win every year, or play well every series. How many people bring up Magic shooting 38% and airballing the potential series-winning shot on a play designed for Kareem vs the Rockets in '81? Or the "Tragic Johnson" series? They look at the 5 rings because only a few players could do that. How many people bring up Bird's play vs Milwaukee in '83 or the series he shot 35% in vs Detroit in '88?
[QUOTE=kurple]they were horrible with Mike Brown as well.
and the celtics and mavs managed to play great defense with old players. lame exuce[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and the Celtics and Mavs don't try to run either. They played 5 games under Mike Brown. Brown was an idiot for trying to put in the Princeton offense, an offense that I really doubt he understood enough, and I never thought he was a great coach before that. But, he's better than D'Antoni, and I guarantee they'd be a better team right now with Brown instead of D'Antoni. By the way, the Mavs defense has hardly been stellar this year, and while the Celtics are picking it up lately, they haven't looked like the dominant defensive team they've been in the past most of the season. But a big difference is that those teams are coached by two of the game's best coaches.
[QUOTE=noob cake]So Lakers are not performing because they are old, and Kobe can't be blamed because he is also old and putting up good stats? Because he is putting up good stats, he is doing no wrong?
The problem with the premise of your argument is that neither Howard nor Gasol are top 10 greatest of all time. They don't have an extensive of history being carried to multiple championships. Kobe does; just check out the number of FMVP awards compared to the number of championships he has "won." You won't find another player in the TOP 10 GOAT debate with a worse ratio.[/QUOTE]
You have real reading comprehension problems, or you're trying to twist my words because you don't have a good counter. I never said Kobe is doing no wrong, but I also said he's played better than anyone expected. I brought up his age because they're asking him to play so many minutes and do so much offensively that there's no way he could play up to his potential defensively at the same time. Even Jordan handed over more responsibilities to Pippen during the second 3peat. Pippen became the designated double teamer and the team's best help defender, which had been Jordan during the first 3peat. He also took on more of the ball-handling duties compared to Jordan. That was the biggest difference between first 3peat Jordan and second 3peat Jordan, he didn't quite have the same energy so he was a little less active outside of scoring. He still played better than Kobe is defensively, but he was a better defender to begin with and a better player. How many players can drop 30+, play about 40 mpg, set up teammates and still have the energy to play elite defense? Prime Jordan, and if you're expecting prime Jordan, particularly from a 34 year old Kobe, you've set the bar unreasonably high.
Kobe could play better than he is defensively, but not enough to make a huge difference, and certainly not without taking away from his offense, which they've depended so heavily on. The Lakers defensive problems go far beyond Kobe. His defense could be viewed as part of the problem, but not the main problem. You have to look at D'Antoni who has always been known as a terrible defensive coach, and you also have to look at the system he's stubbornly insisted on that just doesn't fit their team.
Kobe hasn't been "carried" to a single ring either. That just shows your bias. Finals MVP or not, he was the second best player in both the 2001 and 2002 playoffs. His 2001 playoff run is something most players can only dream of doing. By the way, he got back to back finals MVPs. Not everyone does that you know.
If the Lakers don't make the playoffs this season, Kobe's legacy is still safe. He is still one of the top ten players of all-time. Still one of the greatest Lakers of all-time. Still a top competitor. His legacy is safe.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Kobe deserves more credit than Gasol because he was the Lakers best player. Gasol got a lot of credit for his contributions, although he hasn't been given a pass since, and I'd say he has become underappreciated. Not that there's much to appreciate about his play this year, though.
Kobe seldom got more credit than Shaq during those years. From some, maybe, but the majority recognized that Shaq was the man on the Lakers, especially opposing coaches, GMs, players as well as Phil himself. This is one of the reasons Kobe wanted to win without Shaq.
He got a ton of blame for the '04 finals, Kobe was heavily criticized throughout '04 and '05. The reason most don't bring it up now is because Kobe won 2 more rings. Everyone has failures, but most people recognize the successes more, and rightfully so. You can't win every year, or play well every series. How many people bring up Magic shooting 38% and airballing the potential series-winning shot on a play designed for Kareem vs the Rockets in '81? Or the "Tragic Johnson" series? They look at the 5 rings because only a few players could do that. How many people bring up Bird's play vs Milwaukee in '83 or the series he shot 35% in vs Detroit in '88?
Yeah, and the Celtics and Mavs don't try to run either. They played 5 games under Mike Brown. Brown was an idiot for trying to put in the Princeton offense, an offense that I really doubt he understood enough, and I never thought he was a great coach before that. But, he's better than D'Antoni, and I guarantee they'd be a better team right now with Brown instead of D'Antoni. By the way, the Mavs defense has hardly been stellar this year, and while the Celtics are picking it up lately, they haven't looked like the dominant defensive team they've been in the past most of the season. But a big difference is that those teams are coached by two of the game's best coaches.
You have real reading comprehension problems, or you're trying to twist my words because you don't have a good counter. I never said Kobe is doing no wrong, but I also said he's played better than anyone expected. I brought up his age because they're asking him to play so many minutes and do so much offensively that there's no way he could play up to his potential defensively at the same time. Even Jordan handed over more responsibilities to Pippen during the second 3peat. Pippen became the designated double teamer and the team's best help defender, which had been Jordan during the first 3peat. He also took on more of the ball-handling duties compared to Jordan. That was the biggest difference between first 3peat Jordan and second 3peat Jordan, he didn't quite have the same energy so he was a little less active outside of scoring. He still played better than Kobe is defensively, but he was a better defender to begin with and a better player. How many players can drop 30+, play about 40 mpg, set up teammates and still have the energy to play elite defense? Prime Jordan, and if you're expecting prime Jordan, particularly from a 34 year old Kobe, you've set the bar unreasonably high.
Kobe could play better than he is defensively, but not enough to make a huge difference, and certainly not without taking away from his offense, which they've depended so heavily on. The Lakers defensive problems go far beyond Kobe. His defense could be viewed as part of the problem, but not the main problem. You have to look at D'Antoni who has always been known as a terrible defensive coach, and you also have to look at the system he's stubbornly insisted on that just doesn't fit their team.
Kobe hasn't been "carried" to a single ring either. That just shows your bias. Finals MVP or not, he was the second best player in both the 2001 and 2002 playoffs. His 2001 playoff run is something most players can only dream of doing. By the way, he got back to back finals MVPs. Not everyone does that you know.[/QUOTE]
Classic Kobestan response. Push off any responsibility and attack Jordan to bridge the gap. Sir, it is you that is incapable of reading.
Wouldn't hurt his legacy at all. He's playing for gravy at this point. He's already proven everything. Any reasonable person would agree.
This team isn't that good anyway. Pau is probably one of the worst starting PF's in the league at this point. lol at mentioning him like it's still the same Pau from 2010.
Kobe has never and will never be a good leader, end of story.
There's more to being a leader than simply scoring and telling your teammates to put on "big boy pants".
He doesn't hold himself accountable, his teammates clearly don't respect him as much as he thinks or others perceive him to be.
Like some, Kobe's got carried to rings on the backs of bigs and refs. Great talent errr
[QUOTE=noob cake]Classic Kobestan response. Push off any responsibility and attack Jordan to bridge the gap. Sir, it is you that is incapable of reading.[/QUOTE]
Read his post again. He's not attacking Jordan at all.
[QUOTE=noob cake]Classic Kobestan response. Push off any responsibility and attack Jordan to bridge the gap. Sir, it is you that is incapable of reading.[/QUOTE]
Funny how often I get called both a "Kobe stan" and a "Kobe hater." I knew you couldn't respond, and you proved me right. Oh yeah, and one more thing that proves your reading comprehension problems is when you said I "attacked" Jordan. Where in my post did I say anything resembling a slight towards Jordan? Please tell me, because I'll be fascinated to hear how you try to twist this.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Funny how often I get called both a "Kobe stan" and a "Kobe hater." I knew you couldn't respond, and you proved me right. Oh yeah, and one more thing that proves your reading comprehension problems is when you said I "attacked" Jordan. Where in my post did I say anything resembling a slight towards Jordan? Please tell me, because I'll be fascinated to hear how you try to twist this.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Even Jordan handed over more responsibilities to Pippen during the second 3peat. Pippen became the designated double teamer and the team's best help defender, which had been Jordan during the first 3peat. He also took on more of the ball-handling duties compared to Jordan. That was the biggest difference between first 3peat Jordan and second 3peat Jordan, he didn't quite have the same energy so he was a little less active outside of scoring. [/QUOTE]
So Jordan relied on his team, but poor Kobe doesn't have a Pippen? Its surpirsing how quickly you forget what you wrote yourself just minutes earlier.
[QUOTE=noob cake]So Jordan relied on his team, but poor Kobe doesn't have a Pippen? Its surpirsing how quickly you forget what you wrote yourself just minutes earlier.[/QUOTE]
That was not the point at all. In my post, I state that Jordan was better than Kobe, which I've been on record saying countless times and have never come close to deviating from that. The point was that EVEN Jordan as he got older couldn't score 30 and do everything he use to the same way. It was to my point about age. You have to conserve yourself at times, hell, even most young players who are asked to carry the load Kobe is do that. Prime Jordan was the one exception. This is just a fact. He was still a much better defender than Kobe, but he had to make adjustments. Kobe is carrying such a ridiculous load average 30, playing 40 minutes that I'd be shocked if he was playing well defensively. I do expect better defense from Kobe, but the Lakers are going to still be terrible defensively until everyone starts playing better and most likely until D'Antoni is fired, or Howard returns to pre-injury form. Even with the latter, I think this team would be average at best defensively. In reality, they need a real coach.
The way you twist things is so transparent I don't know how you thought you could ever fool anyone.
Not at all..
5 rings with productions of..
29/7/6 all first team defense
26/6/5 all first team defense
30/5/5 all first team defense
29/6/6 all first team defense
21/5/4 all second team defense
Will likely finish as a top 3 scorer all time..
And leading playoff scorer all time
His accolades already speak for themselves. A season where two coaches are fired, which I believe is the first time it's happened, because of incredible incompetence, and a bunch of injuries to Howard, Nash, and pau during the Lakers hardest schedule stretch aren't going to determine his legacy when he's had success in the other 98 percent of his career.
[QUOTE=andgar923].. [/QUOTE]
No one respects your opinion on anything basketball.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Yeah, and the Celtics and Mavs don't try to run either. They played 5 games under Mike Brown. [B]Brown was an idiot for trying to put in the Princeton offense, an offense that I really doubt he understood enough, and I never thought he was a great coach before that.[/B] But, he's better than D'Antoni, and I guarantee they'd be a better team right now with Brown instead of D'Antoni. By the way, the Mavs defense has hardly been stellar this year, and while the Celtics are picking it up lately, they haven't looked like the dominant defensive team they've been in the past most of the season. But a big difference is that those teams are coached by two of the game's best coaches.[/QUOTE]
Kobe was the one that strongly suggested implementing the Princeton offense. But, yeah, keep blaming Brown for that one.
[QUOTE=Artillery]Kobe was the one that strongly suggested implementing the Princeton offense. But, yeah, keep blaming Brown for that one.[/QUOTE]
Brown is the coach, he has to decide what offense they run. That was one of the biggest problems with Brown, he could not coach Kobe. He deferred to superstars whether it was Lebron or Kobe. Of course I'm going to blame Brown.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Brown is the coach, he has to decide what offense they run. That was one of the biggest problems with Brown, he could not coach Kobe. He deferred to superstars whether it was Lebron or Kobe. Of course I'm going to blame Brown.[/QUOTE]
By that logic, Del Harris, Kurt Rambis, Frank Hamblen, Rudy Tomjanovich couldn't coach Kobe either. No one besides PJax(the GOAT). You're naive if you think Brown had any kind of pull on the Lakers. If Kobe suggests something, the Lakers sure as hell are going to do it regardless of who's coaching.
[QUOTE=Artillery]By that logic, Del Harris, Kurt Rambis, Frank Hamblen, Rudy Tomjanovich couldn't coach Kobe either. No one besides PJax(the GOAT). You're naive if you think Brown had any kind of pull on the Lakers. If Kobe suggests something, the Lakers sure as hell are going to do it regardless of who's coaching.[/QUOTE]
That's the point with Mike Brown.. He defers to his superstars instead of actually doing his job and coming up with his own ideas.
His legacy won't really be diminished, he has played well, and the lakers problems stem from other causes. His defense has been bad yes, but to pin the defensive disasters the lakers have had on just kobe is retarded. He hasn't been good, but nor has most of the team and not to mention the coaching.
To me he has always been in the 8-10 range all time so I don't think that'll change much at all.
Legacy? Let's see still top 6 of all time :rockon: Your alltime rankings can't go down you idiots they can only be surpassed. Right now Duncan and Lebron can surpass him. The Lakers problems don't stem from Kobe alone why do you think every single analyst and reporter are saying that Dwight and Gasol need to improve their play, they all must be Kobe stans :rolleyes:
He's still a top 10 player of all time. LBJ might surpass him if he wins his 2nd finals MVP. LBJ needs to put up better numbers in the Finals.
[QUOTE=Artillery]By that logic, Del Harris, Kurt Rambis, Frank Hamblen, Rudy Tomjanovich couldn't coach Kobe either. No one besides PJax(the GOAT). You're naive if you think Brown had any kind of pull on the Lakers. If Kobe suggests something, the Lakers sure as hell are going to do it regardless of who's coaching.[/QUOTE]
Kobe was a teenager when Del Harris was there, and Del had problems with the entire team. Kurt was a midseason replacement in a lockout year and failed during his one other head coaching stint in Minnesota. He was never going to be their longterm solution. Frank Hamblen was barely a head coach as well. He wasn't meant to be anything more than an interim, never coached an entire season and during his one other stint as a head coach, h went 23-42 with the '92 Bucks.
Rudy T had no problem coaching Kobe. They were 18-15 before Kobe's injury and 24-19 total with Rudy T. He stepped down for health reasons that were well documented.
Hilarious that you threw interim coaches in there.
[QUOTE=Rockets(T-mac)]His legacy won't really be diminished, he has played well, and the lakers problems stem from other causes. His defense has been bad yes, but to pin the defensive disasters the lakers have had on just kobe is retarded. He hasn't been good, but nor has most of the team and not to mention the coaching.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=tpols]That's the point with Mike Brown.. He defers to his superstars instead of actually doing his job and coming up with his own ideas.[/QUOTE]
Great posts, I agree 100%
Despite D'Anotoni's laughable coaching, I still cant fathom LAL missing the postseason w/ this roster. Holy shit. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Despite D'Anotoni's laughable coaching, I still cant fathom LAL missing the postseason w/ this roster. Holy shit. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Yep, it is amazing. It's like Murphy's Law, didn't they know not to f[SIZE="2"]u[/SIZE]ck with Jack Murphy?
[IMG]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2147/5734505789_4551a67779_o.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Yep, it is amazing. It's like Murphy's Law, didn't they know not to f[SIZE="2"]u[/SIZE]ck with Jack Murphy?
[IMG]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2147/5734505789_4551a67779_o.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
The only law I know is "Jack Murphy's law." It's very simple. Don't **** with Jack Murphy. You remember that.
:cheers: