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Ilt = JV defense
Russell = GOAT defense
[QUOTE=feyki]Seems , Wilt has first three ; Russell has others .
0 fouls and blowout loss means zero trying on defence . That's why Russell had the impact above Wilt for game 5 .
And that game 6 could be worst game of Wilt's career .[/QUOTE]
Not a blowout loss at all. The score was tied at halftime and the Celtics only led by 5 after 3 quarters. Wilt had also 30 rebounds, while holding Russell to 8 points. None of these indicates poor defense. On the contrary, Sam Jones going 15-27 from the field for 37 points does indicate poor defense on Hal Greer's part.
Game 6 was Wilt's most inefficient scoring-wise. Is this his worst one? If it is, it is a testament of how good he was, since even there, he added 27 rebounds and 8 assists (in a non blowout loss, either).
[QUOTE=Psileas]Not a blowout loss at all. The score was tied at halftime and the Celtics only led by 5 after 3 quarters. Wilt had also 30 rebounds, while holding Russell to 8 points. None of these indicates poor defense. On the contrary, Sam Jones going 15-27 from the field for 37 points does indicate poor defense on Hal Greer's part.
Game 6 was Wilt's most inefficient scoring-wise. Is this his worst one? If it is, it is a testament of how good he was, since even there, he added 27 rebounds and 8 assists (in a non blowout loss, either).[/QUOTE]
Holding X is false statement when X not a scorer , firstly(as main purpose ). And Russell can pressure on every player of opponent team on the court rather than Wilt . That's the difference of between Goat defender and a great defender . And 0 fouls , tells us ; somethings . About Wilt's contacts and defensive plays . Even that Sam Jones perform was about Wilt . A Dominant Rim protector effects all of opponents . Like Russell said ;
[IMG]http://img.picturequotes.com/2/2/1411/the-idea-is-not-to-block-every-shot-the-idea-is-to-make-your-opponent-believe-that-you-might-block-every-shot-quote-1.jpg[/IMG]
Before 80's rebounding numbers are overrated . We should judge players with rebounding percentages or in same rebound chances when we try measure the rebounding and how many possesions players earned to their team from rebounding .
As a scorer , probably worst in his entire career .
And i cannot believe Wilt's assists numbers can tell us he had great playmaking and he's very solid on feeding teammates . Cause he always obssessed about his numbers . And i think Russell's 5 assists was more effective than Wilt's 8 . Cause Russell wanted to how can he help teammates to the win . Wilt's way was on numbers .
[QUOTE]
"Wilt is a very goal-oriented person, and*and under Alex*(Hannum)*he wanted to win a title and*become the first center to lead the league in assists. He liked to pass to Hal Greer or myself, because we just caught it and shot it. Chet Walker usually caught the ball, took a dribble or two and then shot it - no assist for Wilt*(under the assist rules of that time). So Wilt preferred to give the ball to us.- Billy Cunningham
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Holding X is false statement when X not a scorer , firstly(as main purpose ). And Russell can pressure on every player of opponent team on the court rather than Wilt . That's the difference of between Goat defender and a great defender . And 0 fouls , tells us ; somethings . About Wilt's contacts and defensive plays .[/QUOTE]
Only, Russell was averaging 13.3 ppg in those playoffs, so, yes, Wilt actually held Russell to 8 - that is, 5 points below his average.
Yes, 0 fouls does tell us something. It tells us that Wilt was immensely great at blocking shots without making any needless contact, unlike most big men, because Wilt was a big man who had incredible reflexes and quickness and could predict very well when to jump and contest a shot. The fact that Wilt has such a low career foul number but yet everyone who has seen him play agrees that he's probably the GOAT shot-blocker and an all-time great defender, throws your foul/defense analogy out of the window. It doesn't apply to him anywhere near as much as to the average center.
[QUOTE]Even that Sam Jones perform was about Wilt . A Dominant Rim protector effects all of opponents .[/QUOTE]
Uh, if Wilt excelled at something defensively first and foremost, it was as a rim protector. This is a well-known fact. Having said that, how do you know what types of shots Jones was making? Jones was a great shooter and had no problem burying lots of shots from the perimeter. Wilt, the rim protector, would have no business with Jones in such a case.
[QUOTE]Before 80's rebounding numbers are overrated . We should judge players with rebounding percentages or in same rebound chances when we try measure the rebounding and how many possesions players earned to their team from rebounding . [/QUOTE]
27 rebounds was a great performance even in 1968. It was above Wilt's averages. His rebounding % was 22.5. By all accounts, he rebounded greatly.
[QUOTE]And i cannot believe Wilt's assists numbers can tell us he had great playmaking and he's very solid on feeding teammates . Cause he always obssessed about his numbers . And i think Russell's 5 assists was more effective than Wilt's 8 . Cause Russell wanted to how can he help teammates to the win . Wilt's way was on numbers . [/QUOTE]
None of these quotes and indications show what Wilt was intending to do in playoff games. Stuff like leading the league in assists were a regular season treat. Nobody was mentioning playoff statistical leaders and I've never heard of anybody caring about leading the playoffs at assists or anything else. And I can counter your quotes by other quotes that claim that Wilt was ultra-competitive and wanted to win at anything or by Wilt himself claiming that his stats don't matter as long as he has lost.
[QUOTE=Psileas]Only, Russell was averaging 13.3 ppg in those playoffs, so, yes, Wilt actually held Russell to 8 - that is, 5 points below his average.
Yes, 0 fouls does tell us something. It tells us that Wilt was immensely great at blocking shots without making any needless contact, unlike most big men, because Wilt was a big man who had incredible reflexes and quickness and could predict very well when to jump and contest a shot. The fact that Wilt has such a low career foul number but yet everyone who has seen him play agrees that he's probably the GOAT shot-blocker and an all-time great defender, throws your foul/defense analogy out of the window. It doesn't apply to him anywhere near as much as to the average center.
Uh, if Wilt excelled at something defensively first and foremost, it was as a rim protector. This is a well-known fact. Having said that, how do you know what types of shots Jones was making? Jones was a great shooter and had no problem burying lots of shots from the perimeter. Wilbehind rim protector, would have no business with Jones in such a case.
27 rebounds was a great performance even in 1968. It was above Wilt's averages. His rebounding % was 22.5. By all accounts, he rebounded greatly.
None of these quotes and indications show what Wilt was intending to do in playoff games. Stuff like leading the league in assists were a regular season treat. Nobody was mentioning playoff statistical leaders and I've never heard of anybody caring about leading the playoffs at assists or anything else. And I can counter your quotes by other quotes that claim that Wilt was ultra-competitive and wanted to win at anything or by Wilt himself claiming that his stats don't matter as long as he has lost.[/QUOTE]
He just used a bit less possesions . He did use 16 possesions in that postseason while putting 14 points . And 10 possesions to 8 points in that game . He did focus on defence , which was his best weapon of about the game . And dominated the game with that way .
I didn't mention blocking . Probably you know that's why . It's about forcing the offensive player to tough situation . Not just on near at the rim . Russell trying disrupt of opponent corner shots , mid range shots and even longe range shots . Which was i talked about . I wasn't telling , stay in the front of rim and block shots as you can . I was talking abput that when mentioned rim protection . Russell reached all fields on opponent players when trying shots . Of course , he didn't reach every shot . But I'm sure he tried . That's the reason of being Goat defender . And yes , offensively Wilt was significantly better in every face to face of two . But Russell was good player offensively too , specially with his playmaking ability . Celtics been worse offensively when he retires too .
I always protecting truth of behind the ice age . Duncan > Shaq or Russell > Wilt . It's abput reaching the truth .
Oh geez more ILt Chokerlame stories.... :oldlol:
[QUOTE=feyki]He just used a bit less possesions . He did use 16 possesions in that postseason while putting 14 points . And 10 possesions to 8 points in that game . He did focus on defence , which was his best weapon of about the game . And dominated the game with that way .
I didn't mention blocking . Probably you know that's why . It's about forcing the offensive player to tough situation . Not just on near at the rim . Russell trying disrupt of opponent corner shots , mid range shots and even longe range shots . Which was i talked about . [B]I wasn't telling , stay in the front of rim and block shots as you can . I was talking abput that when mentioned rim protection . Russell reached all fields on opponent players when trying shots . Of course , he didn't reach every shot .[/B] But I'm sure he tried . That's the reason of being Goat defender . And yes , offensively Wilt was significantly better in every face to face of two . But Russell was good player offensively too , specially with his playmaking ability . Celtics been worse offensively when he retires too .
I always protecting truth of behind the ice age . Duncan > Shaq or Russell > Wilt . It's abput reaching the truth .[/QUOTE]
You still have to watch the game to speak safely. It's wrong to assume that just because Russell was per average more of a willing perimeter defender (which is not, however, what firstly constitutes rim protection), Wilt wasn't ever doing the same thing. Plus, it wasn't all good for the Celtics' offense: Havlicek went 10-25 and Bailey Howell 6-16. Now, on Russell, as a big man, you can only go as far from the basket as the opposing big's offensive ability allows you to go. Russell has commented that Wilt made it hard for him to play his usual style of team defense, because of him being so dangerous offensively. This is a game Wilt took 21 shots, more than his averages back then and converted at an over 50% rate. So, there's a good indication that not everything went perfect with Russell's defense in this game, either. What was he doing? Tried to move to the perimeter and harass shots and gave Wilt easy points? Or did he focus on Wilt and still got 28 points scored on him?
[QUOTE=Psileas]You still have to watch the game to speak safely. It's wrong to assume that just because Russell was per average more of a willing perimeter defender (which is not, however, what firstly constitutes rim protection), Wilt wasn't ever doing the same thing. Plus, it wasn't all good for the Celtics' offense: Havlicek went 10-25 and Bailey Howell 6-16. Now, on Russell, as a big man, you can only go as far from the basket as the opposing big's offensive ability allows you to go. Russell has commented that Wilt made it hard for him to play his usual style of team defense, because of him being so dangerous offensively. This is a game Wilt took 21 shots, more than his averages back then and converted at an over 50% rate. So, there's a good indication that not everything went perfect with Russell's defense in this game, either. What was he doing? Tried to move to the perimeter and harass shots and gave Wilt easy points? Or did he focus on Wilt and still got 28 points scored on him?[/QUOTE]
What was Kawhi doing against Lebron while Lebron putting 28 on all time great efficiency , but we all know what happened in the court . It's a compact game . There's no one way for the win .
Yes , we don't know that %100 . But i know Russell's style and his steals numbers support me . He had great versatile on defence with amazing on ball defence ( like Hakeem ) .
[QUOTE=feyki]What was Kawhi doing against Lebron while Lebron putting 28 on all time great efficiency , but we all know what happened in the court . It's a compact game . There's no one way for the win .
Yes , we don't know that %100 . But i know Russell's style and his steals numbers support me . He had great versatile on defence with amazing on ball defence ( like Hakeem ) .[/QUOTE]
We all know: The Spurs overall were playing at a completely different level compared to the Heat. LeBron could be posting stats same as this year or 2015 and they'd still lose - and LeBron would still probably lose the F.MVP. But this doesn't mean Kawhi started being viewed as equal to or better than LeBron.
[QUOTE=Psileas]We all know: The Spurs overall were playing at a completely different level compared to the Heat. LeBron could be posting stats same as this year or 2015 and they'd still lose - and LeBron would still probably lose the F.MVP. But this doesn't mean Kawhi started being viewed as equal to or better than LeBron.[/QUOTE]
My point was about being defensive force even when your match up had great numbers . Russell and Kawhi are not comparable defensively . You can dominate with help defence .
And we don't know Wilt's fourth quarter numbers in that game . Maybe Russell did lock him in the fouth period :confusedshrug: , like Kawhi did against Lebron when it mattered .
[QUOTE=feyki]What was Kawhi doing against Lebron while Lebron putting 28 on all time great efficiency , but we all know what happened in the court . It's a compact game . There's no one way for the win .
Yes , we don't know that %100 . But i know Russell's style and his steals numbers support me . He had great versatile on defence with amazing on ball defence ( like Hakeem ) .[/QUOTE]
We have practically zero evidence of your claims.
Russell was a great team defender... UNTIL he faced Chamberlain. Then, he not only had to stay with him step-for-step. he needed HELP in TRYING to contain him.
On the other end, we have plenty of evidence of Chamberlain not only taking Russell one-on-one on the defensive end, but defending players like Heinsohn and Jones in clutch situations.
Wilt had a considerably greater role at both ends of the floor in the Russell H2H's, and for the most part, easily outplayed Russell in virtually every facet of the game. In some instances by staggering margins.
You won't find Russell putting a 46 point game in a "must win" situation against Wilt. In fact, in one of them... a blowout loss BTW, Russell put up FOUR points, and basically led his lambs to slaughter...in a game in which Chamberlain scored 29 and was on his way to 40+ until the game was well in hand.
People in here arguing about stat lines as the basis of the argument.
SMH.
In 50 years I'm sure there will be stat whores who look back on last years finals for Bron and see his averages and say he was phenomenal. We know that's not true. Not all points are weighted the same, not all rebounds are equal. Not all assists are equal, etc etc.
All I know is that Bill Russell won back to back titles to end his HS career. He won back to back NCAA titles to end his career. He won a title to start and end his NBA career, and 9 in between. He player coached two teams to titles.
Bill mastered being the best teammate. Making winning plays that don't always show up in the box score. He molds himsel to what the team needed to best be successful - he didn't force others to fit around him.
[QUOTE=Carbine]People in here arguing about stat lines as the basis of the argument.
SMH.
In 50 years I'm sure there will be stat whores who look back on last years finals for Bron and see his averages and say he was phenomenal. We know that's not true. Not all points are weighted the same, not all rebounds are equal. Not all assists are equal, etc etc.
All I know is that Bill Russell won back to back titles to end his HS career. He won back to back NCAA titles to end his career. He won a title to start and end his NBA career, and 9 in between. He player coached two teams to titles.
Bill mastered being the best teammate. Making winning plays that don't always show up in the box score. He molds himsel to what the team needed to best be successful - he didn't force others to fit around him.[/QUOTE]
Exactly . Actually , we can reach with context but not only with raw stats . Of course , watching game or reading the story most accurate point to reaching the truth .