Printable View
[QUOTE=pauk]Good job GOAT, i just cant stop getting mindboggled about how many DPOYs/FMVPs Russell could had... [B]may not be the most talented[/B]/skilled player ever but his accolades are hypothetically unmatched and will never be surpassed...[/QUOTE]
Huh?
[QUOTE=fpliii]Huh?[/QUOTE]
He was very talented... but the most talented?
No Sir sid moncrief in 1981 and 1982, Even as a candidate?
Ofcourse this thread gets no play but the thread about Kobe's tweet has 40 pages
Made a few changes and wanted to open this one back up for discussion...
[QUOTE=WillC]Excellent article, but...
Dolph Schayes is a horrendous choice for 1955 Defensive Player of the Year.
In his own words:
"[B]I wasn't supposed to play defense.[/B] The teams back then were categorized in certain ways. There was a center, a passing guard, a shooting guard, a scoring forward, and a defensive forward. I happened to be the offensive forward, so I would always play against the defensive forward and he couldn't score. So I was able to kind of free-lance. I was very fortunate in that respect because it really helped my rebounding a great deal. [B]I never boxed out.[/B] I don't teach it now because I never did it. So I would play the defensive forward, he would never get the ball, always passing off to the offensive forward, who would do the scoring. So I was always able to leave him and help rebound."
And there's more:
"[B]In those rare instances where I had to play defense, I really didn't do a very good job.[/B] I'd hold my man to 30 points a game, which of course made [coach Al] Cervi very angry... [B]Cervi wanted me to play more defense.[/B]"[/QUOTE]
While I think the quotes are largely Schayes being humble, as is his nature, I am going to agree that Schayes does not deserve the award in 1955. I went on here to make some changes and figured I owed you credit for catching this before I did.
[QUOTE=michaelray]No Sir sid moncrief in 1981 and 1982, Even as a candidate?[/QUOTE]
1982 he was the third best defensive guard at best behind Dj and Cooper.
Hang on OP. Let me get my dad. He might have interest in all this.
[QUOTE=LBJFTW]Hang on OP. Let me get my dad. He might have interest in all this.[/QUOTE]
Why does your generation embrace ignorance like it's a good trait?
Still waiting on Regul8r coming in here and linking that Russell thread :D
So Bill Russell would have had like 10 DPOY and 7 FMVPs, if they had been handed out back then. Might have helped his GOAT case.
[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Why does your generation embrace ignorance like it's a good trait?[/QUOTE]
It's not just ignorance, it's also bitterness masquerading as ignorance.
Bitterness is envy that has forgotten itself. And this poster is one of the most bitter on the boards.
Btw, excellent thread. Great job in compiling the list. I think your posts, especially your best OPs, organized and cleaned up, would make a great book. :cheers:
Earl Lloyd is a good choice over Dolph Schayes.
[QUOTE=Gotterdammerung]It's not just ignorance, it's also bitterness masquerading as ignorance.
Bitterness is envy that has forgotten itself. And this poster is one of the most bitter on the boards.
Btw, excellent thread. Great job in compiling the list. I think your posts, especially your best OPs, organized and cleaned up, would make a great book. :cheers:[/QUOTE]
Pretty much.. Hopefully he's got all the threads saved up and does a Simmons like book.. would buy it :applause:
[QUOTE=Gotterdammerung]Btw, excellent thread. Great job in compiling the list. I think your posts, especially your best OPs, organized and cleaned up, would make a great book. :cheers:[/QUOTE]
Most of these things I post on here are rough drafts or abridged versions of the projects I have been compiling for five years now. I have three more projects I want to finish and then I want to string them together with a nice narrative for a book/website.
This has been a very hard process, when I finished my first draft I hated it. The adage is true, [I]you don't know how little you know until you know a lot more than you did[/I].
[QUOTE=WillC]Earl Lloyd is a good choice over Dolph Schayes.[/QUOTE]
I'm genuinely happy you approve. As the person here I think has the most interest and knowledge about 1950's NBA I'd love to hear any thoughts you have or about any sources you've found relating to defense in the 1950's.
It's been the hardest topic for me to find source material on. Just wasn't a huge priority (or properly understood) before Russell.
[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]I'm genuinely happy you approve. As the person here I think has the most interest and knowledge about 1950's NBA I'd love to hear any thoughts you have or about any sources you've found relating to defense in the 1950's.[/QUOTE]
Thanks - I'm certainly a big fan of the NBA's early years and have a room full of books on that era. My study is like a library of basketball history.
I can't really comment on particular years, but in terms of players I think you've overlooked, [B]Bill Sharman[/B] is the first that comes the mind. Ed Macauley said the following: "[Sharman] was a very good defensive player, and people didn’t give him credit for that. He was a tough player, who didn’t lose many fights.” Slater Martin concurred: "[Sharman] was a hell of a good competitor, tough as a boot. Hell, you’d hit him, he’d hit you right back"
I know your opening post only looks at 1955 onwards, but [b]Al Cervi[/b] would be a contender for some of the earlier Defensive Player of the Year awards. Bill Sharman said "[Al Cervi] took great pride in his defense" while Dolph Schayes added "[Cervi was] very defense-minded... His teams always played excellent defense... When he played, he was fire. He played with all his heart and soul. He’d fight and push and shove..."
Bill Sharman also made some interesting observations about [b]Jerry West[/b]'s defense: "Jerry West... was a super defensive player besides being a super offensive player. Although they didn’t keep track of stats as they do today, I would say that Jerry West blocked more shots and had more steals than any guard who ever played in the NBA. He had those long arms and great quickness that was very deceptive until he stole the ball from you a few times… He is one of the very few players that was a true superstar on offense and defense. There are only a couple of other players in the history of the league that you can say that about at both ends of the court. Many are superstars on one end, but not both. Just for fun, try to name any others."
(I love the above quote - it really gets you thinking... Jordan, Chamberlain, LeBron, Hakeem, Kobe, Duncan.... there aren't many that meet that criteria)
Going back to [b]Earl Lloyd[/b], it's true that he was a defensive forward, as were other black players of the time, as explained by the author Terry Pluto: "[Maurice] Stokes was the NBA’s first black star, as he came into the league a year before Bill Russell. There were other superb black players in the 1950s, but they were relegated to what was then called 'the defensive forward'."
Finally, although he was banned from the NBA after just two seasons (and, once again, played before your 1955 starting point), [b]Ralph Beard[/b] was another great defender worth mentioning. Dolph Schayes said "[Ralph] Beard was a player who never got tired, who would go by people on offense and play great defense" while Mike Todorovich said Beard "had amazing quickness on defense".
I hope the above quotes are of some use, even if much of it applies to the early 1950s.
[B]
Imo...
1982 - Jack Sikma
1981 - Dennis Johnson
1980 - Dan Roundfield or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1978 - Bill Walton
1977 - Bobby Jones
1976 - Dave Cowens
1975 - Elvin Hayes
1974 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1973 - Wilt Chamberlain or maybe even Walt Frazier
1972 - Wilt Chamberlain
1971 - Nate Thurmond
1970 - Gus Johnson, Willis Reed or Walt Frazier (hard to say exactly)
1969 - probably still Bill Russell
1968 - Wilt Chamberlain
And back before that everything goes to Bill Russell since the late 1950's, Wilt with a great chance in 1967 or so but, still, that's like 9 more added to Bill Russell, making it 10 overall with the 1969 one, which is just crazy :bowdown: GOAT defensive player.
People need to look at stuff like this and remind themselves that the DPOY wasn't awarded up until 1983... Can't take away from certain player's legacy due to it.
[/B]