[2001 ECSF] Allen Iverson vs Vince Carter Arguably one of the greatest 7 game series

Both were at their peaks and best seasons :applause: .

Specially for Ivy , dream season .

Iverson is so much better than Curry. Forget a damn field goal percentage.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Iverson is so much better than Curry. Forget a damn field goal percentage.[/QUOTE]
You're remembering all the times AI's shot was going in. When his shot's not going in, he can still get it done in other ways tho (drawing fouls and getting in the paint). Overall Curry is the better offensive player. He has the driving game of Iverson and is a much better shooter from the bounce and set.

However, Curry can't draw fouls at will like AI (in reality he and many others don't want to take that kind of punishment). And in the finals, Curry seemed to abandon his driving game (either he was hurt or he was mentally afraid of getting hurt again).

Notice that they both had better scoring games than Kobe ever had in the playoffs!

:applause: :applause:

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]You know, this got me to thinking...

The Raptors have had some good teams/players over the years. Now, don't get me wrong, they're often the EC bridesmaid and never seem to be the bride, but that franchise has shown consistency over a relateively long period of time ... basically, since the league expansion included them.




[B][COLOR="Purple"][SIZE="4"]The Learning Years[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]

They won 30 games in their second season which is a real accomplishment when you look at other expansion squads in their first few years. Largely, that was because of a great pick with Damon Stoudamire in the 1996 Draft, ahead of highly touted guys like Shawn Respert, Gary Trent and Ed O'Bannon, and by far the best player left on the entire board.

He only stuck with them for one more season after his Rookie of the Year campaign and the Raptors had a few years of mediocrity there, but by the 1999-00 season, they had very quickly built a really nice team behind smart decisions by the front office.




[B][COLOR="Purple"][SIZE="4"]Talent, talent everywhere[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]

They obviously had young Tracy McGrady and Carter just hitting his prime, but that wasn't all. They absolutely fleeced NY for a young Doug Christie.

That team won 45 games and lost in the first round, but it was obvious that something was there.

Maybe the only thing holding them from a couple Finals appearances is what happened in the following off-season. Tracy can say what he wants now, in retrospect when he talks about the crazy ceiling prime Carter and McGrady would have had in Toronto, but I remember feeling back then that the Raptors where never even in the running. He wanted to go home (Orlando) and he didn't like paying the hire taxes.




[B][COLOR="Purple"][SIZE="4"]Getting the most out of the situation[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]
So, the Raptors did what they could with no leverage ... tried to make the best deal possible. It turned out to be a nightmare because Orlando gave Toronto their rights to Fran Vazquez.

They didn't sit around and eventually collect on their future pick, though. They turned around and flipped Vazquez's rights to the Pistons for Eric Montross and Jerome Williams. OK, OK... that didn't turn out well either, but it is better than Vazquez, who I don't think ever even played in the NBA.

Meanwhile, they didn't sit on their hands and sulk over McGrady. That front office starts filling the roster with guys who can push their budding star Vince Carter into his first extended playoff run.

He averaged 27+ points on good efficiency that season and upped their record to 47-32 and looked like an honest to god EC contender with Carter, veteran signings like Mark Jackson, Antonio Davis, Kevin Willis and Dell Curry. Of course, it wasn't too smart in retrospect to trade Marcus Camby for Charles Oakley (although he had some good years for the Raps, but they also had a couple young project pieces in


They put out a true conference title contender in 2000-01 and no one dreamed the the Raptors franchise would be that good in such a short amount of time after its creation. This wasn't like adding a team in 1970 when there were far few teams. Toronto had to be one of the best of a field of 30, almost all of whom had a big headstart.

Anyway, that 2000-01 season is when the games highlighted in this thread happened, and the Sixers ended up being a Finals team. They fell to them in one of best Game 7s of the '00s with that infamous Vince Carter missed 20-footer at the buzzer with Philadelphia up just 1 point.

[IMG]http://hoopscribe.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/vince-carter.jpg[/IMG]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3emK-oy0LyQ"]Video of "That Shot"[/URL]


Had that shot gone down, who knows how things play out. I personally think they could have beaten Milwaukee in the ECF and go to The Finals. Now, they would have gotten beaten relatively handily by the Lakers, but so would every team in the league.

It did probably forever alter the way a lot of basketball fans look at Vince Carter, though. His name barely comes up when we reflect on the last couple decades. I think his name is brought up more often if it goes in, because I think he would have led a team to The Finals who had no real earthly business being that far along so soon.

To contrast it to today, the early-00s Raptors were analogous to the Timberwolves.... but only if Minnesota starts winning 45+ games this year and pushes some of the best teams in the league come playoff time.

That's the way Toronto felt at the time. It seemed like, with so much young talent, there was no ceiling.


Of course, that's why you never take for granted having truly contending teams, because just a few years later, injuries and other problems had made Carter a shell of the player he was in 2001.

They go through a few facelifts, including the brief CB3 era where they won a bunch of games for a couple seasons and made the playoffs.



[B][COLOR="Purple"][SIZE="4"]A franchise and fanbase used to winning more than losing[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]

And here we are again ... they may not be the favorite in the Eastern Conference, but they just played in the ECF for the first time in franchise history and they've done it in really smart ways.

A string of good draft picks with DeMare Derozen and Jonas Valanciunas accented the great move of acquiring Kyle Lowry for Gary Forbes from the Rockets.

They also signed DeMarre Carroll, Cory Joseph, Patrick Patterson ...


And now they're winning 50+ games and making trips to the ECF.


Although they haven't even made The Finals, yet alone won it, they have shown great resilience and an aptitude for building and nurturing talent for 20 years now. They just can't get over that hump where you have to almost have one or two or even three of the few superstars in the league to have any real chance of winning it.

Also a great fanbase .... One of the most devoted in the league.




When the Cavs' current run is over (which could be a while since Kyrie just turned 24, Tristan is 25 and Love is 27), the Raptors are a team I'd like to see put together a championship run. The city and the organization deserve it.[/QUOTE]
Great post :applause:

Still scratching my head after watching T-Mac leave. But he made the best decision for his individual career. As far as team accomplishments, it was a huge mistake. Well he joined who we all thought was "the next Jordan".

[QUOTE=FKAri] Overall Curry is the better offensive player. He has the driving game of Iverson and is a much better shooter from the bounce and set.

[/QUOTE]

Curry isn't a better slasher than Iverson was. In this post 2004 rules change league, yeah it may seem comparable. In reality Iverson was penetrating the lane almost at will in a tougher defensive era among the trees, and taking the kind of contact that makes Curry curl up in the fetal position. Notice that Iverson's field goal % shot up post 2005 when he was 30 years old and past his physical peak. Take the Iverson in these videos and put him in today's game, he's scoring the same as his MVP days on much better percentages.

[QUOTE=DATBOYFLUENT]Back when the NBA were interesting and we saw real stars vs real stars not this teaming up with your best friends to win championships that Lebron James started.[/QUOTE]

So you want to see one-man shows at the expense of teamball?

Who were the 2nd options? Aaron McKie and Antonio Davis lol? The stars had crappy supporting casts so they had to score 40 or 50 points in order to win games.

lol why is this thread stickied? the OTC is pretty bad too.

mods be poppin adderrall or some shit.

[QUOTE=Terahite]lol why is this thread stickied? the OTC is pretty bad too.

mods be poppin adderrall or some shit.[/QUOTE]
Quality thread nuffa said

Made for the die hard nba fans. Nowadays, superstars are getting carried to rings, super teams. I understand why LeBron wanted Wade so bad in the ECF because we live for these moments. Epic battles, matchups between stars.

We never seen LeBron v Kobe
My Raptors killed all dreams of seeing LeBron v Wade in the playoffs

I really want to see Prime Durant v current LeBron, unfortunately for us it ain't going to happen.

sure, people still want to talk about how funding ought to come in order for a city to secure a professional team, and how the stadium can be built what not.

and all star games became the safe haven for both the owners and the players

[QUOTE=FKAri]You're remembering all the times AI's shot was going in. When his shot's not going in, he can still get it done in other ways tho (drawing fouls and getting in the paint). Overall Curry is the better offensive player.[B] He has the driving game of Iverson[/B] and is a much better shooter from the bounce and set.

However, Curry can't draw fouls at will like AI (in reality he and many others don't want to take that kind of punishment). And in the finals, Curry seemed to abandon his driving game (either he was hurt or he was mentally afraid of getting hurt again).[/QUOTE]

Sorry, bro. No way, not even close, especially after just re-watching AI in 2001.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]Curry isn't a better slasher than Iverson was. In this post 2004 rules change league, yeah it may seem comparable. In reality Iverson was penetrating the lane almost at will in a tougher defensive era among the trees, and taking the kind of contact that makes Curry curl up in the fetal position. Notice that Iverson's field goal % shot up post 2005 when he was 30 years old and past his physical peak. Take the Iverson in these videos and put him in today's game, he's scoring the same as his MVP days on much better percentages.[/QUOTE]

Very well said :applause:

[QUOTE=VIP2000]So you want to see one-man shows at the expense of teamball?

Who were the 2nd options? Aaron McKie and Antonio Davis lol? The stars had crappy supporting casts so they had to score 40 or 50 points in order to win games.[/QUOTE]

That Sixers' team was BUILT around AI and his playing style. He was required to shoot at high volume and score 30 plus a game. They drafted him knowing this and then created a team around him. Pat Croce was a mutha f#ckin genius. In five years they went from the lottery, grabbing the no.1 pick in the draft to championship contenders. In the process allowing Iverson to become MVP, Mutombo DPOY, Mckie Sixth Man of the year and Larry Brown COTY.

You want to talk about team ball? The Sixers' team defense was sensational. Everyone playing their role while also defending as a unit. Their help rotations and closing out were amazing and full of commitment.

The team's main strength was transition defense. They would clog up the key battling for the offensive boards with their multitude of bigs (Mutombo, Ratliff, Geiger, MacCulloch, Hill) with the backcourt pushing to halfway as safety. Then Snow and more notably AI would swoop in like lightning when the outlet pass was thrown and get a deflection, steal or wind precious seconds of the shot clock. Their team defense was formidable.

While the team may not have been filled with 'superstars' the team had depth. They played 11 or 12 players deep, though Randy Buford didn't play much. The 2001 Sixers were deeper than this year’s Cavs team.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Iverson is so much better than Curry. Forget a damn field goal percentage.[/QUOTE]

Look at the same point of AI's career in comparison to that which Curry is at now. AI is better than Curry offensively except for 3pt and free throw shooting. Take away one MVP and a ring from Curry and it is pretty even. Yeah you can say I may be a lil biased. But realistically if Curry keeps up his current production for another five to ten years there won't even really be a debate though.


[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]

Anyway, that 2000-01 season is when the games highlighted in this thread happened, and the Sixers ended up being a Finals team. They fell to them in one of best Game 7s of the '00s with that infamous Vince Carter missed 20-footer at the buzzer with Philadelphia up just 1 point.

[IMG]http://hoopscribe.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/vince-carter.jpg[/IMG]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3emK-oy0LyQ"]Video of "That Shot"[/URL]


Had that shot gone down, who knows how things play out. I personally think they could have beaten Milwaukee in the ECF and go to The Finals. Now, they would have gotten beaten relatively handily by the Lakers, but so would every team in the league.

[/QUOTE]

It is actually interesting that both AI and Cater had a chance to win it for their teams. AI had the chance to seal the game with 15 seconds to go and passed it of to Eric Snow for the shot. Dunno if Coach Brown drew that one up. Allen should have shot it, dunno if he has ever been criticized for not shooting enough :oldlol: Especially when he had Alvin Williams one on one. Damn, Williams would still be having nightmares about Iverson after that series.

Dell Curry also came up big with the three to keep the raps in it. Vince still playing against his son... damn time flies.

Raps have also been fairly successful for an expansion team in the last 20 years, really, despite the down years. Especially compared to Vancouver. Just goes to show the difference a couple good draft picks make for both players and assets in contrast to a couple busts and underachievers.

[QUOTE=AintNoSunshine]What happen to 50pt Playoff games? We rarely see them anymore. And there are 3 in the same series.[/QUOTE]

Most players don't launch up 30 shots a game like Iverson did...he averaged 33.7ppg on 30 shots in this series...he was even worse vs the Bucks...he averaged 30.5 points on 31 shots a game vs them. By far the most overrated player to ever play.

[QUOTE][/Q[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Iverson is so much better than Curry. Forget a damn field goal percentage.[/QUOTE]

LMFAO...stick to MJ you ****ing dipshit.

[QUOTE]
That Sixers' team was BUILT around AI and his playing style. He was required to shoot at high volume and score 30 plus a game. They drafted him knowing this and then created a team around him. Pat Croce was a mutha f#ckin genius. In five years they went from the lottery, grabbing the no.1 pick in the draft to championship contenders. In the process allowing Iverson to become MVP, Mutombo DPOY, Mckie Sixth Man of the year and Larry Brown COTY.

You want to talk about team ball? The Sixers' team defense was sensational. Everyone playing their role while also defending as a unit. Their help rotations and closing out were amazing and full of commitment.

The team's main strength was transition defense. They would clog up the key battling for the offensive boards with their multitude of bigs (Mutombo, Ratliff, Geiger, MacCulloch, Hill) with the backcourt pushing to halfway as safety. Then Snow and more notably AI would swoop in like lightning when the outlet pass was thrown and get a deflection, steal or wind precious seconds of the shot clock. Their team defense was formidable.

While the team may not have been filled with 'superstars' the team had depth. They played 11 or 12 players deep, though Randy Buford didn't play much. The 2001 Sixers were deeper than this year’s Cavs team.[/quote]

They were CONTENDERS for one year and I'm not even sure if the 76ers would have even beaten the Spurs, or Kings or Blazers in a 7 game series if the Lakers somehow got eliminated before the Finals. Every other year, the Sixers never made it past the 2nd round, even in the weak East.

That 2000-01 team was a very good defensive team built around AI, which is a curse and a blessing. If AI is having a poor shooting night, who is there to pick up the slack? McKie? Tyrone Hill? Jumaine Jones?

While AI was a phenomenal talent, he was just a difficult player to build around. As evidenced by all the other 20 ppg scorers that were run out of town (Glenn Robinson, Derrick Coleman, Van Horn, Hughes, etc.).

[QUOTE=VIP2000]They were CONTENDERS for one year and I'm not even sure if the 76ers would have even beaten the Spurs, or Kings or Blazers in a 7 game series if the Lakers somehow got eliminated before the Finals. Every other year, the Sixers never made it past the 2nd round, even in the weak East.

That 2000-01 team was a very good defensive team built around AI, which is a curse and a blessing. If AI is having a poor shooting night, who is there to pick up the slack? McKie? Tyrone Hill? Jumaine Jones?

While AI was a phenomenal talent, he was just a difficult player to build around. As evidenced by all the other 20 ppg scorers that were run out of town (Glenn Robinson, Derrick Coleman, Van Horn, Hughes, etc.).[/QUOTE]


The Sixers were never REAL CONTENDERS...they never had a shot vs the Lakers...and that's without bringing up the fact that the bucks pretty much got screwed over in that ECF. The only reason the Sixers were even a story is because Zo went down with the kidney ailment...before that, the Heat were by far the best team in the east after they traded for Eddie Jones and Mase and were expected to do no less than have a tough battle with the Lakers in the finals.

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]You know, this got me to thinking...

The Raptors have had some good teams/players over the years. Now, don't get me wrong, they're often the EC bridesmaid and never seem to be the bride, but that franchise has shown consistency over a relateively long period of time ... basically, since the league expansion included them.




[B][COLOR="Purple"][SIZE="4"]The Learning Years[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]

They won 30 games in their second season which is a real accomplishment when you look at other expansion squads in their first few years. Largely, that was because of a great pick with Damon Stoudamire in the 1996 Draft, ahead of highly touted guys like Shawn Respert, Gary Trent and Ed O'Bannon, and by far the best player left on the entire board.

He only stuck with them for one more season after his Rookie of the Year campaign and the Raptors had a few years of mediocrity there, but by the 1999-00 season, they had very quickly built a really nice team behind smart decisions by the front office.




[B][COLOR="Purple"][SIZE="4"]Talent, talent everywhere[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]

They obviously had young Tracy McGrady and Carter just hitting his prime, but that wasn't all. They absolutely fleeced NY for a young Doug Christie.

That team won 45 games and lost in the first round, but it was obvious that something was there.

Maybe the only thing holding them from a couple Finals appearances is what happened in the following off-season. Tracy can say what he wants now, in retrospect when he talks about the crazy ceiling prime Carter and McGrady would have had in Toronto, but I remember feeling back then that the Raptors where never even in the running. He wanted to go home (Orlando) and he didn't like paying the hire taxes.




[B][COLOR="Purple"][SIZE="4"]Getting the most out of the situation[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]
So, the Raptors did what they could with no leverage ... tried to make the best deal possible. It turned out to be a nightmare because Orlando gave Toronto their rights to Fran Vazquez.

They didn't sit around and eventually collect on their future pick, though. They turned around and flipped Vazquez's rights to the Pistons for Eric Montross and Jerome Williams. OK, OK... that didn't turn out well either, but it is better than Vazquez, who I don't think ever even played in the NBA.

Meanwhile, they didn't sit on their hands and sulk over McGrady. That front office starts filling the roster with guys who can push their budding star Vince Carter into his first extended playoff run.

He averaged 27+ points on good efficiency that season and upped their record to 47-32 and looked like an honest to god EC contender with Carter, veteran signings like Mark Jackson, Antonio Davis, Kevin Willis and Dell Curry. Of course, it wasn't too smart in retrospect to trade Marcus Camby for Charles Oakley (although he had some good years for the Raps, but they also had a couple young project pieces in


They put out a true conference title contender in 2000-01 and no one dreamed the the Raptors franchise would be that good in such a short amount of time after its creation. This wasn't like adding a team in 1970 when there were far few teams. Toronto had to be one of the best of a field of 30, almost all of whom had a big headstart.

Anyway, that 2000-01 season is when the games highlighted in this thread happened, and the Sixers ended up being a Finals team. They fell to them in one of best Game 7s of the '00s with that infamous Vince Carter missed 20-footer at the buzzer with Philadelphia up just 1 point.

[IMG]http://hoopscribe.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/vince-carter.jpg[/IMG]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3emK-oy0LyQ"]Video of "That Shot"[/URL]


Had that shot gone down, who knows how things play out. I personally think they could have beaten Milwaukee in the ECF and go to The Finals. Now, they would have gotten beaten relatively handily by the Lakers, but so would every team in the league.

It did probably forever alter the way a lot of basketball fans look at Vince Carter, though. His name barely comes up when we reflect on the last couple decades. I think his name is brought up more often if it goes in, because I think he would have led a team to The Finals who had no real earthly business being that far along so soon.

To contrast it to today, the early-00s Raptors were analogous to the Timberwolves.... but only if Minnesota starts winning 45+ games this year and pushes some of the best teams in the league come playoff time.

That's the way Toronto felt at the time. It seemed like, with so much young talent, there was no ceiling.


Of course, that's why you never take for granted having truly contending teams, because just a few years later, injuries and other problems had made Carter a shell of the player he was in 2001.

They go through a few facelifts, including the brief CB3 era where they won a bunch of games for a couple seasons and made the playoffs.



[B][COLOR="Purple"][SIZE="4"]A franchise and fanbase used to winning more than losing[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]

And here we are again ... they may not be the favorite in the Eastern Conference, but they just played in the ECF for the first time in franchise history and they've done it in really smart ways.

A string of good draft picks with DeMare Derozen and Jonas Valanciunas accented the great move of acquiring Kyle Lowry for Gary Forbes from the Rockets.

They also signed DeMarre Carroll, Cory Joseph, Patrick Patterson ...


And now they're winning 50+ games and making trips to the ECF.


Although they haven't even made The Finals, yet alone won it, they have shown great resilience and an aptitude for building and nurturing talent for 20 years now. They just can't get over that hump where you have to almost have one or two or even three of the few superstars in the league to have any real chance of winning it.

Also a great fanbase .... One of the most devoted in the league.




When the Cavs' current run is over (which could be a while since Kyrie just turned 24, Tristan is 25 and Love is 27), the Raptors are a team I'd like to see put together a championship run. The city and the organization deserve it.[/QUOTE]
I enjoyed reading this :applause: