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Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
Cleveland Cavaliers: 66-16
M. Williams, Ilgauskas, D. West & Varejao
51 PPG, 21.3 RPG, 9.6 APG, 48 FG%, 79 FT%, 31 MPG, 3.7 SPG, 2.4 BPG, 6 TO/G & 63.9 PER
Orlando Magic: 59-23
Lewis, Turkoglu, Nelson & Alston
63.2 PPG, 17.4 RPG, [B]18 APG[/B], 44 FG%, 81 FT%, 33 MPG, [B]4.8 SPG[/B], 1 BPG, 8.4 TO/G, 67.8 PER
Denver Nuggets: 54-28
Iverson, Billups, JR Smith & Nene
[B]66.4 PPG[/B], 17.2 RPG, 17.3 APG, 48 FG%, 78 FT%, [B]34 MPG[/B], 4.4 SPG, 2 BPG, [B]9.3 TO/G[/B], 69.6 PER
Portland Trail Blazers: 54-28
Aldridge, Outlaw, Blake & Fernandez
52.3 PPG, 16.8 RPG, 9.9 APG, 45 FG%, 80 FT%, 31 MPG, 3.5 SPG, 2 BPG, 5.4 TO/G & 64.1 PER
Utah Jazz: 48-34
Okur, Boozer, Brewer & Milsap
60.4 PPG, [B]30.4 RPG[/B], 7.8 APG, 50 FG%, 73 FT%, 32 MPG, 4.6 SPG, 2.3 BPG, 7 TO/G & 69.4 PER
SA Spurs: 54-28
Parker, Ginobili, Mason & Gooden
59.1 PPG, 15.1 RPG, 12.8 APG, 47 FG%, [B]84 FT%[/B], 27 MPG, 3.1 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 6.6 TO/G & [B]77 PER[/B]
Dallas Mavericks: 50-32
Terry, Howard, Kidd & Bass
55.1 PPG, 18.2 RPG, 14.2 APG, 46 FG%, [B]84 FT%[/B], 30 MPG, 4.7 SPG, 2.1 BPG, 6.7 TO/G, 69.6 PER
LA Lakers: 65-17
Gasol, Bynum, Odom & Fisher
54.4 PPG, 28.1 RPG, 10.7 APG, [B]51 FG%[/B], 74 FT%, 31 MPG, 3.2 SPG, [B]4.2 BPG[/B], 6.3 TO/G, 70.9 PER
I didn't include Boston Celtics since they were injured in the playoffs.
So that's 8 contenders, lets see how the best 4 players Kobe had during his championship year & 65 win season compares to some of the other stars.
So Kobe's best four players led the group in FG% & BPG, they are also the only group that has 2 centers in the mix, so it is to be somewhat expected.
Points: 6th
Rebounds: 2nd
Assists: 5th
FG%: 1st
FT%: 7th
MPG: Tied for 4th highest
Steals: 7th
Blocks: 1st
TO/G: 3rd lowest
PER: 2nd
That year Tony Parker made 3rd team All-NBA (as well as the All-Star game), as well as Chauncey Billups. McGrady was pretty banged up; Delonte West is clearly not on Pau's level.
So it's safe to call Pau Gasol the 2nd best option, especially come playoff time. I have no problem with that.
But tell me this, why do some of you persist on calling LA by far the deepest team in the league? Bynum was a non-factor in 2008/09 playoffs either, so if I replaced Ariza with Bynum those numbers would go down and LA wouldn't be #1 in blocks or FG%.
Yet somehow other superstars don't have enough talent around them, only Kobe had all the help in the world. :rolleyes:
By the way, 2009/10 numbers are even less in favour of the so called "Kobe has the deepest team" myth. :oldlol:
I'll assemble those numbers later, too lazy right now.
Cheers!
PS - I promise DMAV and a few other posters that I was having an argument with yesterday that I will post these numbers.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
So basically Kobe's supporting cast was equal to or marginally better than 3 of the teams he faced in the playoffs...
DMavs got a lot of explaining to do. :oldlol:
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
Only a healthy Celtics squad could truly compete with them come playoff time, IMO.
They were a well-rounded team.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Only a healthy Celtics squad could truly compete with them come playoff time, IMO.
They were a well-rounded team.[/QUOTE]
This.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
If you switched melo and kobe out in the 2009 WCF.. Denver wins. Kobe had a monster series on both ends in that series and was by faaar the best player on the court. And denver had a ton of firepower and some good defensive role players. And then they obviously still whoop the magic.
Switch Kobe out for Deron and the Jazz when Carlos Boozer was a legit 20/10 guy, with Paul Millsap, a bunch of great shooters, and AK47 arent just as likely to win?
All of the teams LA faced on their way to the finals, if you took the perimeter star off their team and Kobe off LA, the talent pool was very similar. And Kobe was>>>> than the other teams perimeter star.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
Inb4 Dmavs, Tony Montana, KG215, and Silk:oldlol:
Factual on point thread...Been exposing posters with this for a while.:applause:
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
Iverson AND Billups? :biggums:
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=Doranku]So basically Kobe's supporting cast was equal to or marginally better than 3 of the teams he faced in the playoffs...
DMavs got a lot of explaining to do. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
DMAVs is Gino. That clown got banned for a reason. Dude is a straight retard and troll.
----------------------------
Anyway nothing new to us. We all know everything spewed out there is just hate and trollism.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
The Lakers had the best 2nd option in 2010. Kobe.
Pau led the team in PER and WS in the regular season. Pau led the team in PER and WS in the Postseason. Pau led the team in PER and WS in the Finals.
But PPGz.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=PickernRoller]DMAVs is Gino. That clown got banned for a reason.[/QUOTE]
Except he didn't get banned.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=kurple]Iverson AND Billups? :biggums:[/QUOTE]
That was my bad, Iverson only played 3 games that year.
Replace Iverson with K.Martin, Denver actually improve in 6 categories.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Except he didn't get banned.[/QUOTE]
Gino isn't banned?
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
If you look at these numbers.. basically ANY team Kobe could easily win with, would be said to have carried him with their big men.:oldlol:
Okur Boozer Millsap? New big three! Best big men trio in the league while Pau/Odom recieve little attention getting bounced in the first round at best as they are led by Derek Fisher, Jordan Farmar, and Ron Artest on the perimeter and Bynum on the bench playing nintendo. Denver nuggets? Nene! Camby! DPOY center and offensive juggernaut to save the day.... it can go on and on.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=PickernRoller]Gino isn't banned?[/QUOTE]
Why would he get banned?
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]The Lakers had the best 2nd option in 2010. Kobe.
Pau led the team in PER and WS in the regular season. Pau led the team in PER and WS in the Postseason. Pau led the team in PER and WS in the Finals.
But PPGz.[/QUOTE]
Pau also made 3rd team All-NBA in 2009 & 2010.
Best 2nd option alongside Tony Parker? Sure. Heck, I'll even crown him the best 2nd option in the league, but Kobe having this gigantic advantage depth wise...being on the deepest team in the league is a complete myth.
The biggest difference between the teams Kobe faced in the playoffs, is KOBE. Everything else is marginal at best between the rosters.
Is it so hard to give the man credit, ever?
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=PickernRoller]Gino isn't banned?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/member.php?u=89043[/url]
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
Tony Montana type of troll back in the day. He was temp banned then. No matter.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=tpols]If you look at these numbers.. basically ANY team Kobe could easily win with, would be said to have carried him with their big men.:oldlol:
Okur Boozer Millsap? New big three! Best big men trio in the league while Pau/Odom recieve little attention getting bounced in the first round at best as they are led by Derek Fisher, Jordan Farmar, and Ron Artest on the perimeter and Bynum on the bench playing nintendo. Denver nuggets? Nene! Camby! DPOY center and offensive juggernaut to save the day.... it can go on and on.[/QUOTE]
So true. The Lakers did run into some really talented and well rounded teams. The difference was they were being led by inferior perimeter stars such as Melo, Deron, etc.
Obviously the front court was important, but the two biggest reasons for the Lakers success were Kobe and Phil Jackson.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
Two questions OP:
1) I don't think I've heard the "deepest team" claim very often, just "best/deepest frontcourt".
2) Why did you decide on exactly 4 guys (instead of 3, or 5)? I would think that these would be their crunch-time lineups, but I don't think many teams played three bigs at a time that season. I think Fisher and a couple of other guys bring down their teams' numbers in this comparison.
Either way, both years were great runs by Kobe (and the Lakers). They went through 4 straight top 10 defenses in 09! Damn.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
LeBron is a better player than Kobe ever was.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
Lakers wasn't going to pass the first round without Kobe, period.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=fpliii]Two questions OP:
1) I don't think I've heard the "deepest team" claim very often, just "best/deepest frontcourt".
2) Why did you decide on exactly 4 guys (instead of 3, or 5)? I would think that these would be their crunch-time lineups, but I don't think many teams played three bigs at a time that season. I think Fisher and a couple of other guys bring down their teams' numbers in this comparison.[/QUOTE]
1) Just yesterday a bunch of posters were saying Kobe had the deepest team in the league; saying how other stars (or contending teams) didn't have anywhere near the talent Kobe had.
2) I just picked the top 4 players. I was fair throughout, I didn't include Kirilenko for Utah for example. I picked top 4 because excluding their star player, it basically makes up the starting five. Plus the "leftovers" were primarily role players.
And if you or anyone else are thinking I'm skewing the numbers, go take a look at who Kobe had after the 4 I named. You'll understand, that I'm actually favoring LA by just picking Gasol, Bynum, Odom & Fisher. Their efficiency, rebounding and blocks are highlighted this way.
I used a spreadsheet to do this analysis, and it would have also taken me longer if I was to say pick 6-7 players. I don't see how the analysis would have a different result anyways.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=rhythmic †hesis]1) Just yesterday a bunch of posters were saying Kobe had the deepest team in the league; saying how other stars (or contending teams) didn't have anywhere near the talent Kobe had.
2) I just picked the top 4 players. I was fair throughout, I didn't include Kirilenko for Utah for example. I picked top 4 because excluding their star player, it basically makes up the starting five. Plus the "leftovers" were primarily role players.
And if you or anyone else are thinking I'm skewing the numbers, go take a look at who Kobe had after the 4 I named. You'll understand, that I'm actually favoring LA by just picking Gasol, Bynum, Odom & Fisher. Their efficiency, rebounding and blocks are highlighted this way.
I used a spreadsheet to do this analysis, and it would have also taken me longer if I was to say pick 6-7 players. I don't see how the analysis would have a different result anyways.[/QUOTE]
1) I think Boston was definitely deeper. Denver was pretty close too.
2) There are 5 guys on the court, but how often were those guys on the court together for each team (probably not very long)? Fisher causes the problem here since he's the 4th guy, and the worst of the bunch. Using any fewer players (excluding him) removes his impact on the stats, any more decreases his impact.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=fpliii]1) I think Boston was definitely deeper. Denver was pretty close too.
2) There are 5 guys on the court, but how often were those guys on the court together for each team (probably not very long)? Fisher causes the problem here since he's the 4th guy, and the worst of the bunch. Using any fewer players (excluding him) removes his impact on the stats, any more decreases his impact.[/QUOTE]
I decided to use 5 players (excluding their star player) to highlight that Kobe's top-heavy supporting cast isn't that much better then quite a few other teams that year. The discrepency between Kobe's supporting cast and say D.William's or Anthony's supporting cast would be heavily skewed in favour of Denver/Utah (if I was to include say 6 players instead of 4) because believe it or not Kobe's main help was Gasol, Fisher & Odom. Bynum was a non-factor in the playoffs.
Still point is; does LA look that significantly better then the rest of the league minus Kobe (and the other team's star)?
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
Flawed thread. First of all, who was comparing Kobe to guys like Deron, Melo, Roy, past his prime Duncan at the time? Second of all, total stats are a function of style of play, strategy, etc. Lakers are obviously going to cater to Kobe more then the Jazz would do to Deron Williams for example. I'm not saying thats a bad thing, but that doesn't mean the Jazz 2-5 are better then the Lakers 2-5 just cause stats say so. And by the way, other then the obvious AI error, there's errors like that all over the place. Jameer Nelson, Carlos Boozer, Manu Ginobili missed like half the season for their teams. Thats obviously going to inflate the stats of their teammates, but isn't actually an accurate depiction of what all 4 of them do on the court together. By the way, I realize the same can be said for Bynum and the Lakers. But either way, this way of looking at it is clearly flawed.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
Who has ever claimed the deepest team? I don't think I did, but if I did...that is just wrong.
I don't see anything in those numbers that proves anything. Other than there were some good teams out there.
I agree with what tpols said when he said that switch out Kobe and Carmelo and the Nuggets win. Totally agree...I have never intimated that Melo and Kobe were at all similar. In fact...I've been a huge anti Melo guy here for a long time.
Now, the real test...and my point from the beginning....would be if Wade was on the Nuggets. First off...I'm not sure the Lakers win, but lets say they do...if you then played the same hypothetical and switched them out...I think the Wade led Lakers win. For example.
Heavincent just made my point for me. The difference was in the lower tiered stars they faced.
You guys need to distinguish between what people actually say. I never said Gasol was the MVP of the Lakers. Certainly at times he was, but Kobe was clearly the best and most valuable player on those teams. And Phil Jackson is part of Kobe's help. You can't remove the coach.
Basically this thread proves exactly what I've been saying. That the other true stars didn't have the teams to challenge the Lakers. Lebron, Wade, Dirk, and KG were all missing in 09 for example.
You win with stars. And I don't see any number 2 guy on any of those teams playing at the level 09 and 10 Gasol did. Coaching is hugely important...and other than Pop...who had a coach that equals Phil? Nobody. And again...Kobe is simply better than all the other guys he faced as a star. Only 09 Howard was even remotely close. And again...that is part the greatness of Kobe...and part the true elite players not having great teams.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
Gasol was a beast but inconsistent. Odom wasn't nearly as good as people make him out to be. Bynum... :oldlol:
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
There are two teams on there that I think anyone would be hard pressed to even consider taking over the Lakers.
Does anyone here think that Kobe wins with the 09 Cavs or 09 Mavs for example?
Please answer so I can see where you guys are coming from...
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Who has ever claimed the deepest team? I don't think I did, but if I did...that is just wrong.
I don't see anything in those numbers that proves anything. Other than there were some good teams out there.
I agree with what tpols said when he said that switch out Kobe and Carmelo and the Nuggets win. Totally agree...I have never intimated that Melo and Kobe were at all similar. In fact...I've been a huge anti Melo guy here for a long time.
Now, the real test...and my point from the beginning....would be if Wade was on the Nuggets. First off...I'm not sure the Lakers win, but lets say they do...if you then played the same hypothetical and switched them out...I think the Wade led Lakers win. For example.
Heavincent just made my point for me. The difference was in the lower tiered stars they faced.
You guys need to distinguish between what people actually say. I never said Gasol was the MVP of the Lakers. Certainly at times he was, but Kobe was clearly the best and most valuable player on those teams. And Phil Jackson is part of Kobe's help. You can't remove the coach.
Basically this thread proves exactly what I've been saying. That the other true stars didn't have the teams to challenge the Lakers. [B]Lebron, Wade, Dirk, and KG were all missing in 09 for example.[/B]
You win with stars. And I don't see any number 2 guy on any of those teams playing at the level 09 and 10 Gasol did. Coaching is hugely important...and other than Pop...who had a coach that equals Phil? Nobody. And again...Kobe is simply better than all the other guys he faced as a star. Only 09 Howard was even remotely close. And again...that is part the greatness of Kobe...and part the true elite players not having great teams.[/QUOTE]
What a load of crap, tell me buddy.
In 2006, who was Wade's competition? Dirk? I'm pretty sure he didn't have a 2nd option quite like Shaq.
LeBron? Who the hell did he beat? Durant? An inexperienced Thunder squad who choked away every game thanks to Harden? Oh the aging Spurs with Tim Duncan almost turning 40?
It's so funny to me just how many excuses you guys come up with when it comes to Kobe. Fact is, both LeBron & Wade (in 2006, 2011, 2012, 2013) won in probably a far easier league then Kobe did in 2009 & 2010.
There was parity in the league, and the west was very top heavy. Every team was good, I don't give a **** if your excuses is that LeBron/Garnett/Wade didn't have great teammates around them; GREAT teams won before, like the Pistons of 04' or Dallas of 11'.
Yet because it's Kobe, lets come up with more excuses to discredit the man.
Give it a rest people.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=LA_Showtime]Gasol was a beast but inconsistent. Odom wasn't nearly as good as people make him out to be. Bynum... :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Which year are you talking about for Bynum? He made a solid impact in 10 and was honestly only marginally worse than a guy like Tyson Chandler in the 11 playoffs.
So if you laugh at Chandler's impact...I totally agree. But if you are trying to claim that Bynum was worthless or something in 10...I don't see the evidence for that.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Only 09 Howard was even remotely close.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.kenoki.com/images/antonio-banderas-ooo.gif[/IMG]
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]This is the problem. You get owned in one post...and start attacking me and brining up every other year. 06 has no impact on what happened in 09 or 10.
For example. The competition overall in 13 was incredibly weak. I've been saying it a lot. Worse than 09 for sure with Parker getting hurt in the finals.
Am I now anti Lebron for saying that?
Talk about the years you mention...It's not belittling Kobe. It's stating facts. The other true stars didn't have great teams or Kobe avoided playing them.
This stuff is only brought up when people use titles too much when talking about players....or Kobe's coaching and supporting cast is under-rated.[/QUOTE]
I think from 2008-2010, Kobe beat more 50+ win teams then any player in playoff history. Yet because those teams didn't have a superstar, they weren't contenders according to you.
When did I get owned jackass? I've completely owned you in this thread.
Did you not say just yesterday Kobe has the deepest team in the league?
Now you're backtracking? LOL
You shit for brains.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=rhythmic †hesis]I think from 2008-2010, Kobe beat more 50+ win teams then any player in playoff history. Yet because those teams didn't have a superstar, they weren't contenders according to you.
When did I get owned jackass? I've completely owned you in this post.
Did you not say just yesterday Kobe has the deepest team in the league?
You shit for brains.[/QUOTE]
Lets pause for a second and stop making shit up.
08 was never part of the conversation. So you can throw all of that out. The Lakers did not win in 08...and I hardly doubt you want to bring up the 08 collapse in the finals as the favorite.
So it's 09 and 10.
Sorry...I don't find the competition to be stiff. I think the Lakers had a very large margin of error. And the reasons are as follows;
- The greatness of Kobe
- Phil Jackson
- Pau Gasol
- Solid supporting cast with a proclivity to making huge shots
- Lack of playing other teams with true superstars like Wade, Lebron, Dirk, and KG (09)
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
One thing though...While Dmavs and KG215 would take any opportunity to knock or discredit Kobe, they atleast do it not in a dumbass trolling way. I don't see those 2 saying dumb shit like "Stacked frontline" or "Frontline carried Kobe" or "Gasol real 2010 finals MVP" like others do...Do I expect them to give Kobe credit for stuff? No, just like I wouldn't go out of my way to credit LeBron...
It is wat it is though, If Kobe plays for the Nuggets, threads would be : "Is Kenyon Martin most underrated super star ever", "Marcus Camby carried Kobe" .."JR Smith true Finals MVP".....And Gasol wouldn't even be getting discussed.
You know how many times I've see "stacked FRONTLINE" posted? Yet facts show that 3 out of 4 of the frontline players Kobe played with has horrible to ok role player numbers? It's just trolling....
This is a haters world ppl, we have to accept it.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=branslowski]One thing though...While Dmavs and KG215 would take any opportunity to knock or discredit Kobe, they atleast do it not in a dumbass trolling way. I don't see those 2 saying dumb shit like "Stacked frontline" or "Frontline carried Kobe" or "Gasol real 2010 finals MVP" like others do...Do I expect them to give Kobe credit for stuff? No, just like I wouldn't go out of my way to credit LeBron...
It is wat it is though, If Kobe plays for the Nuggets, threads would be : "Is Kenyon Martin most underrated super star ever", "Marcus Camby carried Kobe" .."JR Smith true Finals MVP".....And Gasol wouldn't even be getting discussed.
You know how many times I've see "stacked FRONTLINE" posted? Yet facts show that 3 out of 4 of the frontline players Kobe played with has horrible to ok role player numbers? It's just trolling....
This is a haters world ppl, we have to accept it.[/QUOTE]
I would depend on the circumstances, but I do agree that Kobe on the Nuggets definitely win the Western Conference. I'd be a little more nervous about the finals though. That series against the Magic could have gone a number of different ways...and I really think Gasol was very important against Howard in that series.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
DMAVs agreed on your overall premise..
But.. I want you to apply that same logic to Michael Jordan.
Did Michael have a better supporting cast than his adversaries?
Who was ewing's second option in the early 90s? John Starks? Ewing had the equivalent of what 2011 Derrick Rose had.. a bunch of defensive role players and one offensive talent except Patrick was the one who made their defense and rebounding elite, on TOP of being the guy they leaned on offensively.
Ewings second option was basically JR Smith.
Charles Barkley? He had the pieces for 1 or 2 years and gave jordan one of his most competitive Finals series. Still never had a second option on Scotties level, nor the coaching, nor the overall teams over a signifigant time span
Hakeem? Not much even has to be said..
Shaq? Had some good talent, but again didnt have near the depth, as good a number two, or coaching to glue it all together.
David Robinson? Again nothing has to be said.
If you switch MJ out to the knicks and make him have to work with John Starks while Ewing gets pippen.. I dont see how the bulls with ewing lose there. Ewing had much less to work with but still led his team to wins and competitive series. You swap pieces and the odds are greatly in his favor.
And overall MJ had the best teams, second option, and coach of ANY other superstar in the 90s... yet no one seems to ever bring it up.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=tpols]DMAVs agreed on your overall premise..
But.. I want you to apply that same logic to Michael Jordan.
Did Michael have a better supporting cast than his adversaries?
Who was ewing's second option in the early 90s? John Starks? Ewing had the equivalent of what 2011 Derrick Rose had.. a bunch of defensive role players and one offensive talent except Patrick was the one who made their defense and rebounding elite, on TOP of being the guy they leaned on offensively.
Ewings second option was basically JR Smith.
Charles Barkley? He had the pieces for 1 or 2 years and gave jordan one of his most competitive Finals series. Still never had a second option on Scotties level, nor the coaching, nor the overall teams over a signifigant time span
Hakeem? Not much even has to be said..
Shaq? Had some good talent, but again didnt have near the depth, as good a number two, or coaching to glue it all together.
David Robinson? Again nothing has to be said.
If you switch MJ out to the knicks and make him have to work with John Starks while Ewing gets pippen.. I dont see how the knicks lose there. Ewing had much less to work with but still led his team to wins and competitive series. You swap pieces and the odds are greatly in his favor.[/QUOTE]
These are literally the points I've been trying to make since joining this site. Totally agree that in a lot of cases it's the team/coaching that is the most important.
But we have to distinguish between a guy like Kobe and Melo for example. That wouldn't work if you switched them...the Kobe led team would just almost always win unless the gap was just huge. But switch Kobe and Wade or Lebron...I think the guy with the better supporting cast and coaching wins most of the time.
Which is why I always defended Dirk for not winning. I never thought he had a team on par with the 10 Lakers or 11 Heat or 08 Celtics...etc. I still don't think he's ever had that.
So we agree. Glad it only took 4 years.
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Re: Kobe's deepest team myth 2008/09 & 2009/10
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]These are literally the points I've been trying to make since joining this site. Totally agree that in a lot of cases it's the team/coaching that is the most important.
But we have to distinguish between a guy like Kobe and Melo for example. That wouldn't work if you switched them...the Kobe led team would just almost always win unless the gap was just huge. But switch Kobe and Wade or Lebron...I think the guy with the better supporting cast and coaching wins most of the time.
Which is why I always defended Dirk for not winning. I never thought he had a team on par with the 10 Lakers or 11 Heat or 08 Celtics...etc. I still don't think he's ever had that.
So we agree. Glad it only took 4 years.[/QUOTE]
Kind of goes back to Kblazes thread about how players really arent that much better than each other when it comes to the greats.