Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...

[QUOTE=fpliii]If we're sticking to positional designations, on the GOAT list:

Duncan>KG>Pettit>Barkley>Malone>McHale[/QUOTE]

Pettit gets forgotten in these discussions.

Best Regular season PF of his era. I'll grant him that much. Playoffs, I'll take Barkley. Finals, I'll take Duncan.

[COLOR="White"]Pre-Season, I'll take Stromile Swift. Off-season, you take Pau Gasol. :troll:[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Crystallas]Best Regular season PF of his era. I'll grant him that much. Playoffs, I'll take Barkley. Finals, I'll take Duncan.

[COLOR="White"]Pre-Season, I'll take Stromile Swift. Off-season, you take Pau Gasol. :troll:[/COLOR][/QUOTE]



I have a hard time with him. I often rank Dirk #5 but I'm not sure. That may be because I've seen him so much and he was in an era with the true elite. While he was playing, Webber was genuinely a monster (and better than he was) and one of the best I've seen. But he lasted and only got better over the years, eventually winning that title.

Petit played 11 years, right? He was an all-star every year and, if I remember correctly, he was 1st Team All-NBA his first 10 years, and 2nd Team his last year. Two MVP's and a title. He's got huge numbers too.


He and Dirk would fight for #5, tho I might lean towards Pettit, this minute...but McHale would be at #7.

[QUOTE=Crystallas]Best Regular season PF of his era. I'll grant him that much. Playoffs, I'll take Barkley. Finals, I'll take Duncan.

[COLOR="White"]Pre-Season, I'll take Stromile Swift. Off-season, you take Pau Gasol. :troll:[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
I don't know, I still might take Barkley in the regular season up until his body broke down on him.

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]Petit? OOOOH. I don't know about all that. You have Dirk #7, I'd assume? That's a bit low.

[B]Dirk is a positionless guy to me based on his skillset. If I had to call him a PF, he'd be top 20 all-time and probably right behind KG (who is also relatively positionless in skillset, but his dominant traits resemble traditional bigs more than Dirk's).[/B]

I do believe this. Duncan should be ranked at PF tho. The problem is not that but that a lot of people argue that he isn't a natural C. I don't understand that. I hear talk of his ball-handling, how athletic and quick and agile he was. Robinson had more of all those physical qualities and could handle the ball just as well!

[B]If anything, from watching the Twin Tower Spurs (given I didn't get to see more than a handful of games of them a year outside of the playoffs, since I'm from the NYC area and online streams weren't big yet) Duncan was more of a traditional center (yes he could hit the bank shot, but he was a back-to-the-basket guy largely from my recollection...the Admiral faced up a lot).[/B]

Garnett is way ahead of McHale.

[B]Agreed.[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]KG over Barkley, McHale and Malone?

Funny....:roll: [/B][/QUOTE]

I have KG right after the West/Robertson/Moses/LeBron/Dr. J tier on my GOAT list. His impact on defense/rebounding was nuts.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Pettit gets forgotten in these discussions.[/QUOTE]

The standard era-based factors that dominate this site aside, it's really hard pegging guys from the 50s especially to one of PG, SG, SF, PF, C. Though there's always been some fudging of positions, Pettit actually made an All-NBA team at center (I believe it was during the championship season). From what I've read while dumping box scores/articles, there were three variants on positional designations back then:

1. (prevalent) g/g/c/f/f
2. (relatively common from the NBL through the mid-60s) lg/rg/c/lf/rf (left and right guards/forwards)
3. (rare) offensive guard, defensive guard, offensive forward, defensive forward, center

so as I've said, it's more of an art than a science IMO. If I had to say so though, from the books/articles/tape/stats I've taken in, Pettit would likely be considered a PF in today's game (based on skillset/playstyle).

[url]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpujqy_karl-malone-on-aliens_fun#.UQNsI_KmSO4[/url]

Don't see why Duncan should be penalized because he is versatile enough to play both positions. In his prime he was a PF. As he's gotten older and slower and the league has gotten smaller and quicker, he's played more center.

I disagree with the poster who says when Splitter is on the floor, TD plays center. Offensively, Splitter plays near the basket as he has no jump shot. Duncan is the one jump shooting when Splitter or Blair is on the floor with him. When Diaw or Bonner is with him, he plays center. On defense, he plays center now because he's too slow to guard the PFs.

He's played with all kinds of big men - DRob, Malik, Rasho, Horry, Oberto, Elson, McDyess, Blair, Bonner, Diaw and Splitter. Some could only play near the basket - some could shoot from distance. That's the beauty of having a player like TD - can play with ALL different kinds of players.

dirk is still the 2nd best pf anyway

[QUOTE=rmt]Don't see why Duncan should be penalized because he is versatile enough to play both positions. In his prime he was a PF. As he's gotten older and slower and the league has gotten smaller and quicker, he's played more center.

I disagree with the poster who says when Splitter is on the floor, TD plays center. Offensively, Splitter plays near the basket as he has no jump shot. Duncan is the one jump shooting when Splitter or Blair is on the floor with him. When Diaw or Bonner is with him, he plays center. On defense, he plays center now because he's too slow to guard the PFs.

He's played with all kinds of big men - DRob, Malik, Rasho, Horry, Oberto, Elson, McDyess, Blair, Bonner, Diaw and Splitter. Some could only play near the basket - some could shoot from distance. That's the beauty of having a player like TD - can play with ALL different kinds of players.[/QUOTE]



A center should be judged, first and foremost, on what he does defensively. Defensively, Duncan is the center.

Also, just because Splitter is closer to the basket doesn't mean he's playing center. He cuts a lot. When Duncan gets in the high post or near the FT line, you can see the way he's positioned is as the center.


[QUOTE=fpliii] Tim Duncan[/QUOTE]



I was going to quote the other post but you posted your reply in my quote so I can't.


I agree, on Duncan and Robinson. Defensively, they were playing with two centers...but that's in essence. They took at Twin Towers approach but Duncan was the PF on defense. I think you qualify a center thru his defense before anything else. Robinson, for all his versatility and face-up game, was the absolute prototype as a defensive center. Added to that, he was quicker and more athletic than just about any PF in the league, much less C. Offensively, he faced up and Duncan played in the post. Defensively, he was the guy at C.

[QUOTE=Crystallas][url]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpujqy_karl-malone-on-aliens_fun#.UQNsI_KmSO4[/url][/QUOTE]



That was a pretty perfect Karl Malone.

I think Malone is one of the most overrated players ever.
He is kind of like the Rafael Palmeiro of basketball, when you look at his stats he looks like a legend, but when you watch him play he never oozes greatness, and doesn't inspire "awe" in the way the true greats do.

admittedly I am biased because I think he is kind of a jackass, but I think decades down the line, fans will look at his numbers and think of him as a legendary player that he never truly was. And I think the Barkley comparisons are disrespectful to Chuck. Imagine you are picking teams in a schoolyard pickup game... wouldn't you choose Charles long before Malone? I sure would.

But I think Bill Simmons sums it up far better than I can:
[I][B]When [Malone and Barkley] were playing for quality teams in their primes ('93 and '94), they met in the regular season seven times: the Suns won five, with Barkley averaging 23.4 points, 11.4 rebounds and 4.3 assists and Malone averaging 21.8 points, 8 rebounds and 3.4 assists. Edge to Barkley.[/B] And then there's this one: Heading into the '92 Olympics, many thought the Dream Team would be Malone's breakthrough. Jack McCallum even wrote, "Many observers think that [Malone and Pippen] will benefit the most from the worldwide exposure, since both are extremely photogenic athletes who, as Malone puts it, 'haven't exactly been plastered all over everything.'" [B]So what happened? Barkley emerged as the Dream Team's second-best player, number one power forward and breakout star.[/B] This has to count for something, right? [B]Chuck blended in with teammates better than Malone did, led the team in scoring and became its dominant personality. It's just a fact.[/B] By the end of the Olympics, SI was describing him as "the talk of the Olympic games", with McCallum gushing, [B]"His astonishing range of abilities- outrebounding much taller players, running the floor like a guard and getting off his shot with either hand whle bouncing off bodies around the basket-- seem more pronounced when performed within the Dream Team galaxy."[/B][/I]

But then Simmons ranks Malone one spot ahead of Barkley because of his longevity and commitment to conditioning. And I fear future generations will rate Malone higher too, because of those damn counting stats.

but if the question is merely "who was a better player" and not "who had the better career", the answer is Charles Barkley, and it isn't that close.

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]I was going to quote the other post but you posted your reply in my quote so I can't.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I was too lazy to break it up into quotes.

[QUOTE]I agree, on Duncan and Robinson. Defensively, they were playing with two centers...but that's in essence. They took at Twin Towers approach but Duncan was the PF on defense. [B]I think you qualify a center thru his defense before anything else.[/B] Robinson, for all his versatility and face-up game, was the absolute prototype as a defensive center. Added to that, he was quicker and more athletic than just about any PF in the league, much less C. Offensively, he faced up and Duncan played in the post. Defensively, he was the guy at C.[/QUOTE]

I agree with all of this (again, based on limited viewing of them in the regular season; I think I've seen every playoff game they played together). Regarding the bolded, I'm wondering who everyone has as the defensive anchor in each of their seasons together:

1997-98:
1998-99:
1999-00:
2000-01:
2001-02:
2002-03:

By the end I think most will have Duncan as the guy (though Robinson was able to body guys up even into 03), though I think people are split on the 98-99 season.

[QUOTE=rmt][B]I disagree with the poster who says when Splitter is on the floor, TD plays center.[/B] Offensively, Splitter plays near the basket as he has no jump shot. Duncan is the one jump shooting when Splitter or Blair is on the floor with him. When Diaw or Bonner is with him, he plays center. On defense, he plays center now because he's too slow to guard the PFs.[/QUOTE]

yeah, you're right to disagree.

Duncan plays with alot of range, always has, but is using it as much as ever. That's more characteristic of PF's than pure centers. Splitter has started the last 20 or so games at center.

You look at the offense of guys like: Howard, Bynum, Chandler, D. Jordan, Splitter, etc, and it's almost entirely scoring in the paint.

Duncan

[QUOTE=SCdac]yeah, you're right to disagree.

Duncan plays with alot of range, always has, but is using it as much as ever. That's more characteristic of PF's than pure centers. Splitter has started the last 20 or so games at center.

You look at the offense of guys like: Howard, Bynum, Chandler, D. Jordan, Splitter, etc, and it's almost entirely scoring in the paint.

Duncan

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]Duncan plays like a center and he's been the starting center since 2008.


As far as Hakeem, I cannot agree. How was Olajuwon a PF? He was 6'10 and skinny. If he had a PF's game he would have played PF. He had guard moves, but he played strictly like a center.[/QUOTE]

I dunno. If a guy could play alongside a C then he's a PF, to me. The only guys that are true Cs couldn't play with another C. Hakeem is definitely capable of being a PF.

If I was building a goat all-time team I'd have Hakeem at PF and there's no PF you could find that would be able to stick him or score on him.

-Smak

If you eliminate TD from the discussion then the gamut would have to go down to KG. He the only other one who won it all as the best player. He's among the best defenders/team defenders ever in the sport. He played TD head to head to a dead heat in their best seven years and had almost the exact same general numbers over that period of time as well. Had the most rebounding titles. I think he was the only one to win DPOY award. Was the best all around player in the game in his prime. He was the most consistent passer.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]If you eliminate TD from the discussion then the gamut would have to go down to KG. He the only other one who won it all as the best player.[/QUOTE]

Bob Pettit and the Hawks in 58.

Was Elvin Hayes considered better than Wes Unseld with the Bullets and their lone title ?

Where does KG rank?
He has put together some nice seasons, and he has a ring too.
Shouldn't he also be ranked above Malone and Barkley?

OMG! One of the greatest players of all time think he was the best PF ever. That's so crazy. :lol

Come on. Before Duncan, Malone was considered the greatest PF ever. People forget that. Dude was a beast and gets underrated here.

Listening to the interview (great one BTW) and the "nba open court" , you can tell Malone and Barkley are really great friends. Also the Pippen thing is nothing absurd, many players see him as the ultimate teammate and defender.

[quote=Whoah10115]Duncan is a center in any era. He was only a PF because David Robinson was still on the team.[/quote]

And David played like a sf on offense. Duncan has always been a center in my mind. He's skilled enough to be considered a PF but he fits the description of a center much better regardless of what they've called him most of his career.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Bob Pettit and the Hawks in 58.

[B]Was Elvin Hayes considered better than Wes Unseld with the Bullets and their lone title ?[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]Duncan is a center in any era. He was only a PF because David Robinson was still on the team.[/QUOTE]

+1

i never got why people call duncan a pf.
was hakeem a because he played with sampson?

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Bob Pettit and the Hawks in 58.

Was Elvin Hayes considered better than Wes Unseld with the Bullets and their lone title ?[/QUOTE]

No it was Wes Unseld's team and he was the heart and soul of that team much like KG was to Boston. Hayes was considered a distraction, much like putting Roy Tarpley on KG's team. Stat wise he would be up on KG but no way would you consider him the better player. There's a difference.

Petit wasn't in the conversation. The conversation is around Barkley, Malone and KG. I didn't see the show but if Barkley is third who might be second behind Malone.. according to Malone. My argument is that KG and Duncan were very similar in output. Duncan had an unique ability to win like few others ever had. A great intangible.

Dirk > Malone

his best and most productive seasons were at PF. Just because he played more seasons at the 5 spot? That is one of the weakest arguments you can make. He made the position switch because of the combined evolution of the PF spot (stretch 4s, quick face up 4s, rarely any back to the basket PFs now) and because of his age. He dominated the 4 spot but we are gonna forget all of that because he played more seasons at the 5? I think the mailman's gone crazy y'all

malone got so many easy ass buckets from the pick and roll. a lot of his success should be credited to stockton.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]This was recently discussed on PSD. Splitter starts at Center and is in the low post more than Duncan BUT.... Duncan is normally the one guarding opposing centers and being guarded by opposing centers, therefor he's actually playing center, despite what position they are listed as right now.[/QUOTE]

Duncan has guarded, and been guarded by, way too many power forwards in the here an now and in the past for this to hold any weight.

[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/DuncanandGarnett13_zpsc751580f.jpeg[/IMG]

Just last month, Duncan and KG, two of the best PF's ever, were guarding each other. TD was guarding Griffin some the other day too, and has for the past couple years.

Duncan and KG have guarded each other through out their careers, although they mostly [I]don't[/I] guard each other for strategy reasons.

And if you say "Garnett was playing Center that game", which he was next to Bass, it really exposes the cracks in this school of thought. The fact is, the league is a PG and Swingman's game nowadays, and some of the best centers of today are PF's (Duncan, Garnett, Horford, Jefferson, etc). Which is why they are called PF/C.

Gregg Pop, when the Suns and Mavs were looking strong in the late 2000's, became infatuated with stretch-4's and envisioned Matt Bonner being the next Robert Horry or Dirk (2008-2010)

Duncan usually matched up with 4s when he played with Robinson and Rasho, but for quite a few years now, probably '07 on, he's primarily matched up with centers. There are exceptions, just as there are exceptions in the Robinson years since it wasn't uncommon for Duncan to match up with a center, he just didn't the majority of time.

As far as where he's played primarily. Well, his first few years, it was definitely more PF. Though as Robinson's minutes started to decrease, particularly by 2003, Duncan was virtually splitting time playing with both Robinson and Malik Rose. Rose would actually guard the centers at times, including Shaq, but it's pretty clear who was more of a center between Duncan and Rose. This was fairly similar to some of the Rasho years as well, when Duncan played quite a bit with Rasho as well as Horry at other times.

Duncan's game to me has always resembled a versatile, skilled center. He has the size, post game and defense of a center, but he's also been a good jump shooter out to 18-20 feet for years, and it's seemed that he's actually relied on his outside shot more since he moved to center. He was also a very good face up big man when he was young who could take other big men off the dribble and get to the basket. That's probably the part of his game that's fallen off the most. As well as guarding 4s. In his prime, he was more than capable of guarding either position, and exploiting either position at the other end. He was bigger than 4s and quicker than most 5s. He's still great to watch. I love watching his passing from the high post and the Spurs halfcourt offense executed flawlessly. Parker and Duncan have become a phenomenal screen/roll duo over the years.

I'd take him over Barkley and Malone as a player. I don't really think of him as a power forward, but if you ask me to choose between the 3 to start a franchise, I definitely have to go with Duncan.

But I'd also definitely take Barkley over Malone. No question in my mind who the better player was.

[QUOTE=SCdac]yeah, you're right to disagree.

Duncan plays with alot of range, always has, but is using it as much as ever. That's more characteristic of PF's than pure centers. Splitter has started the last 20 or so games at center.

You look at the offense of guys like: Howard, Bynum, Chandler, D. Jordan, Splitter, etc, and it's almost entirely scoring in the paint.

Duncan – especially in his prime – utilizes the midrange, high-post, off the dribble, face-up, jump shooting, game what we see from so many PF's.

[B][U]Duncan's 2013 shooting[/U][/B]

[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/Duncanshotchart13_zps70087fa8.jpg[/IMG]

[B][U]Tiago's 2013 shooting[/U][/B]

[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/TiagoSplittershotchart_zpsd7d91211.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

You could make that same point about other big men duos, though. Look at Hakeem and Thorpe. Hakeem took a good amount of jumpers as his career went on, while Thorpe was primarily a guy who would finish or post up. Thorpe really didn't take many jumpers. Hell, Robinson was less of a low post player than Duncan.

It should also be noted Duncan was a center in college and projected to be one in the NBA:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho8OT89WI6w[/url]

You don't get to be the greatest at your position when you do this:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPBLeb8h9Ts&t=5m19s[/url]

[QUOTE=eliteballer]It should also be noted Duncan was a center in college and projected to be one in the NBA:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho8OT89WI6w[/url][/QUOTE]

Yeah, Charles Barkley played center in college too... same with Antonio McDyess.... and LaMarcus Aldridge... so many other big men.

Really, doesn't deny the fact that Duncan played PF from 1998-2008. A full 10 years into his career and into his 30's.

[img]http://www.playmakeronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Tim-Duncan-Dirk-Nowitzki.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]He Was a Better All Around Player but I Don`t Know If His Impact Was Greater.[/B][/QUOTE]

wRiting tHis wAy mAkes aS mUch sEnse aS yOur cApitalization sCheme

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]According to 82 games Duncan has primarily been a center for 7 years now. I don't quite agree with him but there is truth to the idea that people constantly call Duncan a PF when in fact he's spent nearly half of his career playing center. It's just more favorable when people call him a PF. I understand he was a listed PF back when the Spurs won titles but he was usually the one guarding the opposing teams center and had the opposing center guarding him.[/QUOTE]

Blake will never be better than Duncan, no matter where Duncan plays.

Bump..

Malone: Duncan was a C, Barkley was a SG, Dirk was a SF and KG was a a PG. I

[QUOTE=Magic 32]You don't get to be the greatest at your position when you do this:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPBLeb8h9Ts&t=5m19s[/url][/QUOTE]

The Mailman doesn't deliver on Sundays.

Duncan is a center. The only reason people think of him as a PF is because the Spurs already have David Robinson.

^ possibly the most regurgitated statement

do these guys ring a bell?

- Rasho Nesterovic
- Nazr Mohammed
- Fabricio Oberto
- Francisco Elson
- Tiago Splitter
- Kurt Thomas
- Jackie Butler
- Theo Ratliff
- Ian Mahinmi

Immediately after after Robinson retired, Spurs courted Alonzo Mourning (C) and Rasho Nesterovic (C).

Two seasons after Robinson retired, Spurs traded Malik Rose (PF) for Nazr Mohammed (C) who became the starting center.

After that season, Spurs sat on Scola's rights (eventually traded for a center, Jackie Butler) and signed Oberto, Argentina's starting center, to a 3-year deal. They also signed Francisco Elson (C) from Denver.

[quote=ESPN, July 14 2005]Oberto is a warrior in the paint with polished moves around the post. He's a good scorer, rebounder and defender who has the toughness and aggressiveness to be an excellent role player in the league. He's also a great passer in the post and frequently draws comparisons to Divac on that skill. [B]Don't be surprised if he is the Spurs starting center on opening night.[/B][/quote]

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2107750[/url]

I just found this

[B]2000-01 Shooting Splits [/B]

[QUOTE][B](FG Made At the Rim / Tot FG Made)[/B]

Camby (C) -76.3%
Shaq (C) - 60.1%
Mutombo (C) - 59.3%
Robinson (C) - 57.7%
Divac (C) - 55.9%


Malone (PF) -45.5%
Webber (PF) - 39.1%
Duncan (PF) -38.1%
Garnett (PF) -33.0%
Dirk (PF) - 31.4%[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][B](FG Made 3 to 9 ft / Tot FG Made)[/B]

Shaq (C) - 33.3%
Mutombo (C) - 31.8%
Duncan (PF) - 29.7%
Divac (C) - 26.0%
Garnett (PF) -22.7%
Webber (PF) -21.0%
Camby (C) -13.4%
Robinson (C) -13.1%
Malone (PF) - 8.3%
Dirk (PF) - 6.2%[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][B](FG Made 10 to 15 ft / Tot FG Made)[/B]

Duncan (PF) - 21.0%
Robinson (C) - 20.8%
Garnett (PF) - 18.6%
Dirk (PF) - 17.7%
Malone (PF) - 16.8%
Webber (PF) -10.0%


Camby (C) -9.6%
Mutombo (C) -8.9%
Shaq (C) - 6.5%
Divac (C) - 5.4%[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][B](FG Made 16 ft to 3 pt / Tot FG Made)[/B]

Webber (PF) -29.7%
Malone (PF) - 28.9%
Garnett (PF) - 23.1%
Dirk (PF) - 19.8%
Divac (C) - 11.5%
Duncan (PF) - 10.2%


Robinson (C) - 8.4%
Camby (C) -3.2%
Shaq (C) - 0.2%
Mutombo (C) -0.0%
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][B](FG Made 3-pt / Tot FG Made)[/B]

Dirk (PF) - 24.8%
Garnett (PF) - 2.6%
Divac (C) - 1.3%
Duncan (PF) - 1.0%
Malone (PF) - 0.4%
Camby (C) -0.3%
Webber (PF) -0.2%
Robinson (C) - 0.0%
Shaq (C) - 0.0%
Mutombo (C) -0.0%
[/QUOTE]

He's right though, Duncan always has and always will be a Center, not a PF.