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Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
It's not like he was a rookie or something. Why is it he suddenly blossom into an Allstar the exact same year Lebron left, and now 1 year without Lebron, he is straight balling?
[IMG]http://s9.postimage.org/8q7dnls25/Captur1e.jpg[/IMG]
He goes into double digit in scoring and rebound AFTER Lebron left.
Also, let's look at guys like Wade, Bosh. Did Lebron make them better? Hell, Wade had a very good career as a top 3 player in the league when Lebron joined and what happened to him now? Bosh was his franchise's leader for 7 years, as soon as he leaves to Miami he is simply an star forward who gets disrespected :roll:
Look at all the clues here, guys. Why are all Lebron teams just a one-man team, consisting of him doing everything? Fact: Lebron doesn't make anyone better, he makes his stats look better, that's all.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE]It's not like he was a rookie or something. Why is it he suddenly blossom into an Allstar the exact same year Lebron left
[/QUOTE]
Because over time players get better when they work on there weaknesses and are asked to do more,
He also allowed below avg players like Eric Snow (at the time he sucked), Sasha Pavlovic to be solid starters
[QUOTE]Also, let's look at guys like Wade, Bosh. Did Lebron make them better? [/QUOTE]
Bosh is having a career year shooting like 60% and Wade's been slowed down by injuries and has to do less, just cause you do less doesn't mean someone doesn't make you better.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
Varejao has always been extremely underrated. I see him as Joachim Noah with a better offensive game. Yes Varejao still has no midrange shot and he can look like a clumsy lummox, but at the same time I've seen Varejao do a ton of really sweet iso moves and spin moves and get his own shot on occassion. Every time he did something awesome Lebron would be given all the credit even if it was a simple entry pass. Great big man. A quality garbage man that occassionally has flashes of brilliance on offense. Every team in the league would want this guy, just not necessarily as a starter.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[IMG]http://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/rajon-rondo-lebron-is-a-bitch-530x530.jpg[/IMG]
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
ball dominating players like Lebron, Wade, Chris Paul, never make their teammates better. they reduce them to spot up shooters or backdoor cutters or fastbreak finishers.
People conflate high assist numbers with being good teammate when in reality they are completely different things.
A young player like Blake Griffin probably is hurting his development as a complete NBA player playing next to Chris Paul. Real talk
look at what happened to beasley smh
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=ripthekik]It's not like he was a rookie or something. Why is it he suddenly blossom into an Allstar the exact same year Lebron left, and now 1 year without Lebron, he is straight balling?
[IMG]http://s9.postimage.org/8q7dnls25/Captur1e.jpg[/IMG]
He goes into double digit in scoring and rebound AFTER Lebron left.
Also, let's look at guys like Wade, Bosh. Did Lebron make them better? Hell, Wade had a very good career as a top 3 player in the league when Lebron joined and what happened to him now? Bosh was his franchise's leader for 7 years, as soon as he leaves to Miami he is simply an star forward who gets disrespected :roll:
Look at all the clues here, guys. Why are all Lebron teams just a one-man team, consisting of him doing everything? Fact: Lebron doesn't make anyone better, he makes his stats look better, that's all.[/QUOTE]
Wow so lebron makes his teammates worse yet he still manages to win 60 games with the cavs team, rape your celtics AND win and championship. Must be that damn good
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
Varejao is getting those numbers because he is playing more. Per 36 minutes he was double double almost every year in Cavs. Guy is playing almost 36 minutes per game this year. 10 minutes more in average than when Lebron was there.
And you are really expecting all three of them to have superstar numbers on one team? There is one basketball you know. Lebron's impact can be seen on players like Chalmers, Battier, Allen etc.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]
look at what happened to beasley smh[/QUOTE]
What happend hes completely lazy, has no interest in defending, hes a tweener and has not even gotten remotley better since he came into the L what happend exactly? He never played with Lebron ethier
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
Lebron taught Varejao well. Turned him into an all star after all these years. Finally put all the tools together that Lebron taught him.
Lebron da GOAT! Is it possible for him to get COTY as well guys? He deserves it after turning a scrub like Varejao into a decent player. GOAT player and coach.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE]You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ripthekik again.[/QUOTE]
Meh atleast I can one star.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
Mad Celtics fan is obvious.
I bet that game 6 in the playoffs made rethink your life huh.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
So, the same people that talk about how useless stats are are using stats to indicate whether or not Lebron is making his teammates better?
Of course their stats go down. If you put prime KG on a team with prime Ben Wallace (just thought of this, but it sounds f*cking awesome), are they both going to average 14 boards? If you put Stockton on a team with Magic, are they both going to average 12 assists?
A lot of stats are additive, meaning players can take stats away from each other depending on their role on the team.
Varejao is a great case of a player that has improved every year he's been in the league and now plays a much greater role on a team with less talent. Naturally, his numbers are going to increase. This doesn't mean that Lebron didn't make him a better player or that he made him worse. You could actually argue that Varejao wouldn't be playing like this if he hadn't ever played with Lebron.
Since you're a Celtics fan, I'll throw a Celtics example at you. When the Big 3 came together and their stats all decreased, did it mean that KG made Paul and Ray worse players? Or that they made him a worse player? Obviously not.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=andremiller07]What happend hes completely lazy, has no interest in defending, hes a tweener and has not even gotten remotley better since he came into the L what happend exactly? He never played with Lebron ethier[/QUOTE]
His point was about playing with ball dominant players. In that case, Dwyane Wade. But beasley does have those problems, and its frustrating as a fan. Even if he kept playing shit defense atleast dont get so shook once you miss a couple shots.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
How is it Lebron's problem what Varejao rebounds? Its not like Lebron has anything to do with Varejao's rebounding.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=LEFT4DEAD] There is one basketball you know. Lebron's impact can be seen on players like Chalmers, Battier, Allen etc.[/QUOTE]
That's right, the only ones he make better are spot up shooters.
[QUOTE=Sakkreth]Meh atleast I can one star.[/QUOTE]
did you want to rep me? Don't worry bro, I can wait :cheers:
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]ball dominating players like Lebron, Wade, Chris Paul, never make their teammates better. they reduce them to spot up shooters or backdoor cutters or fastbreak finishers.
People conflate high assist numbers with being good teammate when in reality they are completely different things.
A young player like Blake Griffin probably is hurting his development as a complete NBA player playing next to Chris Paul. Real talk
[/QUOTE]
real talk. :applause:
oh and guys I'm not a Celtics fan, no need to shiit on them here :oldlol:
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=MichaelCheazley]His point was about playing with ball dominant players. In that case, Dwyane Wade. But beasley does have those problems, and its frustrating as a fan. Even if he kept playing shit defense atleast dont get so shook once you miss a couple shots.[/QUOTE]
Beasley best seasons imo were with the Heat he actually got to play in the playoffs while being a solid contributor, he had 1 season in Minny where he played statistically his best ball and has fallen off badly since.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
another daily dose of Rip's delusional kool-aid...keep up the agenda! :applause:
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=ripthekik]It's not like he was a rookie or something. Why is it he suddenly blossom into an Allstar the exact same year Lebron left, and now 1 year without Lebron, he is straight balling?
[IMG]http://s9.postimage.org/8q7dnls25/Captur1e.jpg[/IMG]
He goes into double digit in scoring and rebound AFTER Lebron left.
Also, let's look at guys like Wade, Bosh. Did Lebron make them better? Hell, Wade had a very good career as a top 3 player in the league when Lebron joined and what happened to him now? Bosh was his franchise's leader for 7 years, as soon as he leaves to Miami he is simply an star forward who gets disrespected :roll:
Look at all the clues here, guys. Why are all Lebron teams just a one-man team, consisting of him doing everything? Fact: Lebron doesn't make anyone better, he makes his stats look better, that's all.[/QUOTE]
u dont ever give up huh?
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=andremiller07]Beasley best seasons imo were with the Heat he actually got to play in the playoffs while being a solid contributor, he had 1 season in Minny where he played statistically his best ball and has fallen off badly since.[/QUOTE]
Honestly he hasn't really looked good period in the NBA. He was most confident during his first season in minny due to having the green light and being a big part of that team. Injuries unfortunately derailed that good season but he showed the most flashed of brilliance then. In miami he looked like a mental midget. It didnt help that spoelstra had a tendency to pull him when he was getting hot, just so he can stick to his rotation. In the playoffs he barely contributed in either series and if he cant score, he doesnt contribute much else. What he needs to do is really work on mixing up his offensive moves and get better at what hes good at. He's easy to shut down when he doesnt have his stroke because his moves are basically shoot a jumper or triple threat,jab, jab followed by a bad shot. If hes able to mix up his offense i can see him being a great sixthman scorer for a contender. Maybe even a solid starter on a team that can mask his defensive weaknesses.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=LEFT4DEAD]Varejao is getting those numbers because he is playing more. Per 36 minutes he was double double almost every year in Cavs. Guy is playing almost 36 minutes per game this year. 10 minutes more in average than when Lebron was there.
[/QUOTE]
So does this debunk the myth spread by Lebron fans that Cleveland was scrub city? ONLY now after Lebron is gone, we start recognizing talent like Varejao who is an excellent rebounder and player.
Cavs back then had all-star talents like Varejao, and a lot of shooters and defensive player who fit the team well.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
He has always been a valueable player. I have always said he is the closest thing in the league to Dennis Rodman. Just his energy, you don't see it very often in the league. His numbers have slightly went up since Bron left but so has his playing time. He is a starter now and a top 3 option on offense. He has always been the kind of player he is though. Who knows how 2011 and 2012 would of ended with him as he had season ending injuries both years.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=ripthekik]So does this debunk the myth spread by Lebron fans that Cleveland was scrub city? ONLY now after Lebron is gone, we start recognizing talent like Varejao who is an excellent rebounder and player.
Cavs back then had all-star talents like Varejao, and a lot of shooters and defensive player who fit the team well.[/QUOTE]
he wasn't playing like an All Star in the playoffs.
blame LeBron on that too right?
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=Bigsmoke]he wasn't playing like an All Star in the playoffs.
blame LeBron on that too right?[/QUOTE]
when he plays well = lebron made him better
when he didnt play well = "oh, blame it on lebron too right?"
win-win situation for lebron fans :applause:
if you want to give lebron credit for making his teammates better, why dont you make him shoulder the responsibility when they play like crap as well? Afterall he is the leader of the team, isn't he? :confusedshrug:
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=ripthekik]So does this debunk the myth spread by Lebron fans that Cleveland was scrub city? ONLY now after Lebron is gone, we start recognizing talent like Varejao who is an excellent rebounder and player.
Cavs back then had all-star talents like Varejao, and a lot of shooters and defensive player who fit the team well.[/QUOTE]
Naw, they were great... with Lebron that is. They have a ****ing 43-119 record since Lebron left. And Im repeating myself. Varejao's improvement is only due to him playing more. Nothing else. Guy averaged about 7 rpg in his 6 seasons with Lebron in about 24 mpg and since Lebron left about 11 rpg in 33 mpg. I dont see anything special about it. :confusedshrug:
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=ripthekik]when he plays well = lebron made him better
when he didnt play well = "oh, blame it on lebron too right?"
win-win situation for lebron fans :applause:
if you want to give lebron credit for making his teammates better, why dont you make him shoulder the responsibility when they play like crap as well? Afterall he is the leader of the team, isn't he? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
you didn't see Varejao pick up the pieces when LeBron was stuggling in the Finals or just stop trying or whatever in that Celtics series.
Varejao is known for rebounding and defense so what the **** does that has to do with LeBron? Should Kobe get discredit because Caron Butler put up better stats after beat traded for Kwama Brown or Wade aint shit because of Dorell Wright's stats when he was on the GSWs?
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=LEFT4DEAD]Naw, they were great... with Lebron that is. They have a ****ing 43-119 record since Lebron left. And Im repeating myself. Varejao's improvement is only due to him playing more. Nothing else. Guy averaged about 7 rpg in his 6 seasons with Lebron in about 24 mpg and since Lebron left about 11 rpg in 33 mpg. I dont see anything special about it. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
So if he is an allstar this year, we can say he has produced at all-star level all along since Lebron was there?
also, it's absolutely worthless to point out their record post-Lebron. The team was built to be around lebron, how can it work when the gear is taken out? Like 2001 Sixers without AI.
Also, the team was fundamentally different. Players were injured, some left, the coach was fired, all of that made the team different. The fact that they had a bad record had absolutely nothing to do with Lebron besides the fact that he blindsided them and they couldn't sign a star to replace the void left by him.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=ripthekik]It's not like he was a rookie or something. Why is it he suddenly blossom into an Allstar the exact same year Lebron left, and now 1 year without Lebron, he is straight balling?
[IMG]http://s9.postimage.org/8q7dnls25/Captur1e.jpg[/IMG]
He goes into double digit in scoring and rebound AFTER Lebron left.
Also, let's look at guys like Wade, Bosh. Did Lebron make them better? Hell, Wade had a very good career as a top 3 player in the league when Lebron joined and what happened to him now? Bosh was his franchise's leader for 7 years, as soon as he leaves to Miami he is simply an star forward who gets disrespected :roll:
Look at all the clues here, guys. Why are all Lebron teams just a one-man team, consisting of him doing everything? Fact: Lebron doesn't make anyone better, he makes his stats look better, that's all.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
Another LeBrick myth exposed..
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=ripthekik]So if he is an allstar this year, we can say he has produced at all-star level all along since Lebron was there?
also, it's absolutely worthless to point out their record post-Lebron. The team was built to be around lebron, how can it work when the gear is taken out? Like 2001 Sixers without AI.
Also, the team was fundamentally different. Players were injured, some left, the coach was fired, all of that made the team different. The fact that they had a bad record had absolutely nothing to do with Lebron.[/QUOTE]
So you are saying that Lebron was not so influetial, even though they had 66-16 season when he was around? Or are you saying that Lebron only by himself is worth almost 50 wins? You are losing in both cases.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=LEFT4DEAD]So you are saying that Lebron was not so influetial, even though they had 66-16 season when he was around? Or are you saying that Lebron only by himself is worth almost 50 wins? You are losing in both cases.[/QUOTE]
I am saying, the TEAM was good, it was built around him with talents including Varejao who haven't been recognized until recently. Lebron didn't really made his teammates better, they were already good, it just didn't seem so statistically because of the Lebron-dominant system they played in.
Most people simply give credit to Lebron as if he single handedly won 66 games and made his teammates great, which is not true.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=ripthekik]I am saying, the TEAM was good, it was built around him with talents including Varejao who haven't been recognized until recently. Lebron didn't really made his teammates better, they were already good, it just didn't seem so statistically because of the Lebron-dominant system they played in.
Most people simply give credit to Lebron as if he single handedly won 66 games and made his teammates great, which is not true.[/QUOTE]
Now you just dont know what are you talking about, but whatever. :rolleyes:
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]ball dominating players like Lebron, Wade, Chris Paul, never make their teammates better. they reduce them to spot up shooters or backdoor cutters or fastbreak finishers.
People conflate high assist numbers with being good teammate when in reality they are completely different things.
A young player like Blake Griffin probably is hurting his development as a complete NBA player playing next to Chris Paul. Real talk
look at what happened to beasley smh[/QUOTE]
Cp3 is Nash alike. Totally difference :facepalm
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=ripthekik]I am saying, the TEAM was good, it was built around him with talents including Varejao who haven't been recognized until recently. Lebron didn't really made his teammates better, they were already good, it just didn't seem so statistically because of the Lebron-dominant system they played in.
Most people simply give credit to Lebron as if he single handedly won 66 games and made his teammates great, which is not true.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll:
You're contradicting yourself all the time.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]ball dominating players like Lebron, Wade, Chris Paul, never make their teammates better. they reduce them to spot up shooters or backdoor cutters or fastbreak finishers.
People conflate high assist numbers with being good teammate when in reality they are completely different things.
A young player like Blake Griffin probably is hurting his development as a complete NBA player playing next to Chris Paul. Real talk
look at what happened to beasley smh[/QUOTE]
This. Except, I wouldn't put CP3 in that category. He is a pure point guard.
A shooter like Ray Allen (at his age, of course) can benefit from playing alongside Lebron, but any other star would suffer immensely, especially traditional big guys. Lebron's game does nothing for them, so I don't get people's bitching about their lack of centers. They continue to go out and sign shooters instead for a reason.
I also don't understand when people say that Lebron can be the best point guard in the league if he plays that position full time. Well, guess what, he already does! And the fact that he can't even average 10 assists per game tells you that he is not that effective at distributing the ball.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
Players do improve you know...
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=ripthekik]So does this debunk the myth spread by Lebron fans that Cleveland was scrub city? ONLY now after Lebron is gone, we start recognizing talent like Varejao who is an excellent rebounder and player.
Cavs back then had all-star talents like Varejao, and a lot of shooters and defensive player who fit the team well.[/QUOTE]
So why can't they win any games without Lebron with all that talent you claim they had/have?
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]ball dominating players like Lebron, Wade, Chris Paul, never make their teammates better. they reduce them to spot up shooters or backdoor cutters or fastbreak finishers.
People conflate high assist numbers with being good teammate when in reality they are completely different things.
A young player like Blake Griffin probably is hurting his development as a complete NBA player playing next to Chris Paul. Real talk
look at what happened to beasley smh[/QUOTE]
Not true about Paul, but it's starting to be true this year. Last year, he made the players around him better. This year, not so much. Lebron and Wade are different. Lebron does make people better, but not to the extent people suggest. Making the play for someone does not make them better. Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd...they make people better. Look at the Denver game in Denver earlier this year. Lebron was great, but he wasn't making people better. I think people just like to say what sounds good.
Tho Varejao has greatly improved. Did Lebron hold him back? I don't know, but regardless he is better now than he was then.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
He made the Finals twice. Who cares what effect he has on Varejao's numbers? And another thing: What does Varejao's rebounding have to do with James? Stupid topic.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=Whoah10115]Not true about Paul, but it's starting to be true this year. Last year, he made the players around him better. This year, not so much. Lebron and Wade are different. Lebron does make people better, but not to the extent people suggest. Making the play for someone does not make them better. Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd...they make people better. Look at the Denver game in Denver earlier this year. Lebron was great, but he wasn't making people better. I think people just like to say what sounds good.
Tho Varejao has greatly improved. Did Lebron hold him back? I don't know, but regardless he is better now than he was then.[/QUOTE]
making players "better" is more about how you lead on and off the court. whether you help players develop as players by improving their work ethic, dimensions of their game etc. As well as giving those players the freedom to hone their skills in game situation.
Kobe has done more for his teammates than Lebron ever has.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]making players "better" is more about how you lead on and off the court. whether you help players develop as players by improving their work ethic, dimensions of their game etc. As well as giving those players the freedom to hone their skills in game situation.
Kobe has done more for his teammates than Lebron ever has.[/QUOTE]
That's an intangible quality that you can't really measure.
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Re: Does Lebron really make his teammates better? Varejao?
Making players better is the most cliche and overused term in basketball. There's no such thing as making players better, you can only make the game easier. Playing with a superstar is not going to magically add athleticism or fix a broken jumpshot. The term really just needs to stop being used in basketball vocabulary. And the whole premise of the OP has to be the stupidest way I've seen someone hate on Lebron.