10 seconds left, tied up, ball in Jordans hands. Who do you chose to defend him?

Rodman
Pippen
Cooper

i think length on great wheels is crucial to challenge super star shotmakers at the last shot.

[QUOTE=TheMan]
Old ass Jordan punked prime KG in that video, imagine a prime MJ.
[/QUOTE]

Those were few possessions only. Anyone could find ANY elite defender getting "fooled" now and then, it doesnt mean anything - total body of work is what counts, or head-to-head extensive data, NOT a few possessions.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]
Ron Artest in his Pacers defensive prime:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90[/url]

How much more fukking evidence is needed? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

and you got debunked right there:

"I just watched it all.
I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks."

Smart people understand they should base their opinion on more than just a few plays. Like anyone can post how Iverson broke Jordan's ankles, does it mean no one can defend AI, and MJ sucks as a defender? Thats your logic :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]?

Did you even watch that video or did you just read its title "MJ abuses Ron Artest and Pacers".

I just watched it all.

I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks.

And it is a highlight video, so it doesn't show MJ's misses or times when Artest or whoever was guarding him held their ground.

By the way, his totals for the game were 11/25 FG, 25 points, and 3 assists. Yep, Artest sure got torched :rolleyes: .[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=Harison]

and you got debunked right there:

"I just watched it all.
I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks."

Smart people understand they should base their opinion on more than just a few plays. Like anyone can post how Iverson broke Jordan's ankles, does it mean no one can defend AI, and MJ sucks as a defender? Thats your logic :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

The question asked in the thread is: Who, with 10 seconds left to go, would you use to defend Jordan? So the question itself doesn't refer to someone defending Jordan over the course of a game, but a single late-game possession. That video provided 4 glimpses of Jordan matching up against Artest, and the results of that matchup. Now obviously it didn't show the occasions where Artest may have successfully defended him( if there were any), because it's a Jordan highlight video. But in the scenario outlined in the topic title, the basic premise is which defender gives you the best chance for a single, late-game all-out defensive effort on Jordan.

If you're talking about a matchup with an elite defender and an elite offensive player, especially one at Jordan's level, odds are Jordan more often than not is going to have the advantage and in this case, Artest is going to be faced with any number of scenarios: Jordan taking him off the dribble to the rim, Jordan posting on him( as shown at 1:20), Jordan using a pick, or Jordan pulling up on him. We have no idea what the odds of Jordan scoring or Artest stopping him would be in that single late game 10 sec possession, but the video evidence of their encounter is certainly worth more than what has been mostly speculative commentary in this thread.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]You're free to post a video of Artest shutting down Jordan in this game if you like.

Point was to show Jordan matched up against Artest and that video provided a sample size of an old Jordan matched against a prime Artest. Ok a few of the plays involved picks. And? What offensive player doesn't use them? You can still extrapolate for the most part how a prime Jordan would fare against Artest.[/QUOTE]

Well i don't have the full game tape of that game or any other Indiana vs Wizards game from 2002.

And actually, if we were to extrapolate stuff, i could say that MJ probably missed 6 shots against Artest in that game, because MJ overall was 11 for 25 in that game (and 11/24 = 4/10).

And even in that video itself, at the 4:45 mark, you can see Artest shut MJ down 1 on 1, leading to an MJ turnover (I don't even know why they left that in the video though, because this was a video of all of MJ's good plays). So, if I used bad logic, I'd go crazy about that one play and say that Artest can shut down MJ. But I can't because that was just one play.

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]Well i don't have the full game tape of that game or any other Indiana vs Wizards game from 2002.

And actually, if we were to extrapolate stuff, i could say that MJ probably missed 6 shots against Artest in that game, because MJ overall was 11 for 25 in that game (and 11/24 = 4/10).

And even in that video itself, at the 4:45 mark, you can see Artest shut MJ down 1 on 1, leading to an MJ turnover (I don't even know why they left that in the video though, because this was a video of all of MJ's good plays). So, if I used bad logic, I'd go crazy about that one play and say that Artest can shut down MJ. But I can't because that was just one play.[/QUOTE]

I gave a more detailed response above if you haven't read it yet...

But on the point of extrapolating, it would be moreso speculation since there's no evidence of Artest actually stopping Jordan 6 times and from what we can see, Artest didn't exclusively guard him this game. But then, this is all speculation, isn't it?

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]I gave a more detailed response above if you haven't read it yet...

But on the point of extrapolating, it would be moreso speculation since there's no evidence of Artest actually stopping Jordan 6 times. But then, this is all speculation, isn't it?[/QUOTE]

I see.

Well yes, MJ was 4 for 4 against Artest in this video (or actually 4 for 5).

But as said, this video showed all of MJ's successful plays. We do not see:

1. MJ making a few dribble move attempts at getting by Artest where Artest stood his ground leading to an MJ pass

2. Artest forcing MJ into a miss (and as said, extrapolating, the most educated guess would say that this happened 6 times)


I can't really take anything at all from that video for said reasons. And nobody can, unless they think that Artest guarded MJ on 5 total possessions in the whole game (the ones the video showed), which is very very unlikely.

[QUOTE=Harison]Those were few possessions only. Anyone could find ANY elite defender getting "fooled" now and then, it doesnt mean anything - total body of work is what counts, or head-to-head extensive data, NOT a few possessions.



and you got debunked right there:

"I just watched it all.
I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks."

Smart people understand they should base their opinion on more than just a few plays. Like anyone can post how Iverson broke Jordan's ankles, does it mean no one can defend AI, and MJ sucks as a defender? Thats your logic :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Hmm Ron artest said himself MJ killed him when they worked out and Arrest cracked his rips. Also how do u explain Shawn Marion? He shitted on him two gms and a game winner. A 38 year old on sergery ridden knees embarrassing so called dvance athletes. Lmao be serious. Bruce Bowen said Mj was his toughest cover. Lol at prime Shawn Marion can't guard a broken MJ

[QUOTE=juju151111]Hmm Ron artest said himself MJ killed him when they worked out and Arrest cracked his rips. Also how do u explain Shawn Marion? He shitted on him two gms and a game winner. A 38 year old on sergery ridden knees embarrassing so called dvance athletes. Lmao be serious. Bruce Bowen said Mj was his toughest cover. Lol at prime Shawn Marion can't guard a broken MJ[/QUOTE]

Shawn Marion isnt a good one on one defender. Ron Artest just says random shit. I'm not going to start believing him now.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]The question asked in the thread is: Who, with 10 seconds left to go, would you use to defend Jordan? So the question itself doesn't refer to someone defending Jordan over the course of a game, but a single late-game possession. [/QUOTE]

Few possessions doesnt say much (if anything) how well certain player would defend someone in general, or with 10 secs remaining.

The real question is, who have the [B]best [/B]chance to [B]limit [/B]Jordan's chances to score? No one can shut down elite scorer like MJ completely, and just posting few plays where MJ outplayed the defender, is neither the evidence for the point above, nor its wise in the first place.

[B]Lets use your logic [/B](and I can post the evidence of those certain plays):

Jordan missed some game winning shots, therefore he shouldnt be entrusted with the ball in the clutch. Few plays is all that matter, not the overall body of work, right? :rolleyes:

Iverson broke Jordan's ankles on the dribble once. According to you, it would be the evidence Jordan wouldnt be able to defend AI.

I hope you understand now, that the "evidence" you posted doesnt mean any of that, its just cherry picking of statistically meaningless data.

[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]Shawn Marion isnt a good one on one defender. Ron Artest just says random shit. I'm not going to start believing him now.[/QUOTE]
Shawn Marion is a good one on one defender. Bruce Bowen said it too. Ron arrest still said it don't be mad

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]I see.

Well yes, MJ was 4 for 4 against Artest in this video (or actually 4 for 5).

But as said, this video showed all of MJ's successful plays. We do not see:

1. MJ making a few dribble move attempts at getting by Artest where Artest stood his ground leading to an MJ pass

2. Artest forcing MJ into a miss (and as said, extrapolating, the most educated guess would say that this happened 6 times)


I can't really take anything at all from that video for said reasons. And nobody can, unless they think that Artest guarded MJ on 5 total possessions in the whole game (the ones the video showed), which is very very unlikely.[/QUOTE]

But again, isn't a video showing their encounters worth more than speculation?

The video shows Jordan scoring on Artest 4 times, not Artest stopping him 6 times. Your comment would suggest that Jordan and Artest matched up for at least 10 of Jordan's shot attempts. Since we don't have evidence as per that video to show this, it's speculation on your part that Artest 'stopped' Jordan 6 times, not extrapolation. Anyways, this is an issue of a semantic play on words and not terribly important.

The video showed Jordan scoring against other defenders as well, so Artest was not matched up against him the entire game. But really, for the purposes of this discussion, he doesn't have to be. The question isn't: what single defender would you have guard Jordan for a game? It's what single defender would you have guard him in a late game possession? In that 10 second instance, anything can happen, right? It's speculation either way with a variable number of outcomes. Maybe Jordan scores off the dribble, or posts him, or he gets fouled, or he shoots over the top. Maybe Artest strips him, blocks his shot, or forces him to pass. Do we really know? Of course not.

[QUOTE=L.A. Jazz]Rodman
Pippen
Cooper

i think length on great wheels is crucial to challenge super star shotmakers at the last shot.[/QUOTE]
agree with this

[QUOTE=juju151111]Shawn Marion is a good one on one defender. Bruce Bowen said it too. Ron arrest still said it don't be mad[/QUOTE]

Shawn Marion has never been a lock down defender. lets not change reality. Who has he really done a good job on? he was too slow laterally to guard the elite two guards in his prime, too small to guard the pfs he matched up with and never really bothered Pierce or Bron or Melo. He has never even been used as a shut down defender.

[QUOTE=Harison]Few possessions doesnt say much (if anything) how well certain player would defend someone in general, or with 10 secs remaining.

The real question is, who have the [B]best [/B]chance to [B]limit [/B]Jordan's chances to score? No one can shut down elite scorer like MJ completely, and just posting few plays where MJ outplayed the defender, is neither the evidence for the point above, nor its wise in the first place.

[B]Lets use your logic [/B](and I can post the evidence of those certain plays):

Jordan missed some game winning shots, therefore he shouldnt be entrusted with the ball in the clutch. Few plays is all that matter, not the overall body of work, right? :rolleyes:

Iverson broke Jordan's ankles on the dribble once. According to you, it would be the evidence Jordan wouldnt be able to defend AI.

I hope you understand now, that the "evidence" you posted doesnt mean any of that, its just cherry picking of statistically meaningless data.[/QUOTE]

Actually, that's not my logic at all. I merely posted a video showing their matchup. You can infer as little, or as much, as you like from it. This entire thread is speculation and we can really go around in circles about it, can't we?

For the record I understand your point completely, but I'm not sure if you understand mine. Limited sample size of video evidence isn't conclusive enough to say whether Artest could guard him or not overall. Yes, got that, not hard to figure out. But video evidence still, in what is a hypothetical discussion, trumps speculation. Especially over a situation( 10 seconds late game) that can have any number of outcomes. Really, we may as well not even discuss it, right? I mean who knows what's going to happen in a single possession, and how much time do you want to invest debating about it?

If you're going to dismiss the video, then you may as well dismiss the discussion period, because it's a totally hypothetical debate. Otherwise, take the video for what it is, a example of Jordan matching up with Artest. It wasn't intended to be definitive proof of anything but to show that if old Jordan can hold his own against Artest( as shown in limited sample size), you can figure that prime Jordan would do pretty good. Or, take nothing from it and speculate till the cows come home.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]But again, isn't a video showing their encounters worth more than speculation?

The video shows Jordan scoring on Artest 4 times, not Artest stopping him 6 times. Your comment would suggest that Jordan and Artest matched up for at least 10 of Jordan's shot attempts. Since we don't have evidence as per that video to show this, it's speculation on your part that Artest 'stopped' Jordan 6 times, not extrapolation. Anyways, this is an issue of a semantic play on words and not terribly important.

The video showed Jordan scoring against other defenders as well, so Artest was not matched up against him the entire game. But really, for the purposes of this discussion, he doesn't have to be. The question isn't: what single defender would you have guard Jordan for a game? It's what single defender would you have guard him in a late game possession? In that 10 second instance, anything can happen, right? It's speculation either way with a variable number of outcomes. Maybe Jordan scores off the dribble, or posts him, or he gets fouled, or he shoots over the top. Maybe Artest strips him, blocks his shot, or forces him to pass. Do we really know? Of course not.[/QUOTE]

You seem smart enough and like you know what a good argument consists of.

1. I'm saying we don't have enough evidence here for a good argument in MJ's case or Artest's case.

We have a video that was edited to take away any evidence Artest's side of the argument would have.


2. And yes, it's a single possession at the end of the game.

The best defender of MJ over an infinite number of possessions will have the best chance to guard him on that one possession.

If player x has an MJ stoppage rate of 40% over infinite possessions and player y's is 39%, player x wins.

Unless you are trying to say that for some reason that one possession will be different than the others. Like you are saying that Artest for some reason will be worse on an end of game possession than a regular possession throughout the game.


3. I gotta go. LOL.

I look forward to seeing a response to this when I'm back if you want to leave one.