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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=fpliii]This is key...I think we determined that Thurmond could do a serviceable job on him (even past his prime). There are actually a few concerns with Shaq, as equipping him with certain types of players could make his team very dangerous in a playoff setting and undermine the balance (this could be the case with Sixers Wilt as well, depending on which season of his you select and what type of team you surround him with).[/QUOTE]
Yes... Russell's the GOAT defender, so adding [I]prime[/I] Thurmond would stack the team too much defensively. I just wanted a bigger body who could defend Shaq went he came to town, freeing Russell and enabling him to help. '75-76 Thurmond was perfect though, as he wasn't in his prime anymore, which wouldn't stack the team too much (and that only affected his offensive game, which he isn't here for in the first place. They have enough offense), he actually came off the bench in the given season, which was key as I only wanted actual bench players on the bench, and he still had it defensively, shutting down prime Kareem who was MVP of the league to 3-14 shooting in the fourth quarter of a game in which he was brought in to defend him:
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=V5NSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cl8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=5084,5868324[/url]
and he was highly effective against Dave Cowens--who was third in the MVP voting--and the postseason against the Celtics who were an uptempo team when he was pressed into starting duty and had to play 40 minutes a game. He was the perfect backup for what I was looking for. (He'd be the functional defensive equivalent of '86 Walton.)
There are some matchups I think about when forming a team, "How would they do against Shaq," and how would they do against high-scoring wings? Russell's team can defend Shaq with Thurmond (and the point isn't to shut him down, just limit/contain him enough to enable the team to win. As was the case with Wilt, whatever individual numbers he puts up don't matter so long as the team gets the "W"), they can defend Jordan, Kobe, etc., with Cooper backed by Russell, Nance and Thurmond off the bench, and they can defend Bird, who has always said Cooper was his toughest defender. Duncan's team can defend Shaq with the Twin Towers as the Spurs actually did, and they can defend Jordan, with Dumars being credited as his toughest defender, etc. I don't want any team to have too much of an advantage over everyone else, as the point is to put everyone on equal footing.
[QUOTE=fpliii]I'll have to take a look at the thread and see if I can parse out some reasonable suggestions.[/QUOTE]
Kobe might be difficult, as finding the right mix of players won't be as easy as it was for the more team-oriented players in Russell, Magic, and Duncan, and in real life there were clashes with teammates and complaints about touches, which compounds the problem of forming a complementary team that will enable him to shoot as much as he wants without his teammates becoming dissatisfied from not being involved enough in the offense, while still being competitive against the other teams. Which was why I was trying to get some opinions from people who watch him all the time. As there is only so much time in the day, I can't watch everyone to the same extent, so I have no problem with consulting other people who've watched a particular player more than I have.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Longevity Is NOT A Skill.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yet it is taken into account when ranking players, don't act like you don't either. I shouldn't have to even try to pull examples that show this.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
In terms of GOAT, I have no problem with Timmy, Mailman, Barkley, KG, and Dirk as the top five GOAT PF's. Can't forget McHale, Hayes, and Petit as well. Timmy had the size and skillset of the legendary centers. But he gained his fame and notoriety as a PF, even though he played a ton of C. To me it's no different than a swingman, combo guard, or SF-PF. Most guys have a secondary position they may play often. The problem with Timmy is when these commentators list a Blair or Bonner as Center and Timmy as PF. And that has happened a lot to Duncan once Robinson retired. So the problem is Timmy being lined up with guys who are natural PF's and STILL being called a PF. It's not the fact that Timmy is a 7 footer who happens to blessed with epic ability and can play PF, C, and in his younger days even some SF.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
When looking at the legendary PF's, Barkley is the BIGGEST STAR of them all and made the PF spot make up ground on the other spot in that regard. When u factor everything, I think Barkley is the MOST IMPACTFUL PF ever in terms of redefining the position, ticket sales, exposure worldwide, ratings, etc. So even though Timmy is the GOAT PF, I think Barkley is to PF's what MJ was to SG, Magic PG,and Bird SF. Barkley made it cool to be a PF, when before it was known mainly as an enforcer position. Or it had skilled scorers and rebounders like Hayes, Lucas, and Pettit fly under the radar while the other stars got more attention. Barkley put PF's on the front page and was as visible as anybody. Once Bird and Magic retired, Barkley was the second biggest star in the L and a transcendant kind of star at that.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=bizil]In terms of GOAT, I have no problem with Timmy, Mailman, Barkley, KG, and Dirk as the top five GOAT PF's. Can't forget McHale, Hayes, and Petit as well. Timmy had the size and skillset of the legendary centers. But he gained his fame and notoriety as a PF, even though he played a ton of C. To me it's no different than a swingman, combo guard, or SF-PF. Most guys have a secondary position they may play often. The problem with Timmy is when these commentators list a Blair or Bonner as Center and Timmy as PF. And that has happened a lot to Duncan once Robinson retired. So the problem is Timmy being lined up with guys who are natural PF's and STILL being called a PF. It's not the fact that Timmy is a 7 footer who happens to blessed with epic ability and can play PF, C, and in his younger days even some SF.[/QUOTE]
Tim is 6'10.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=Big#50]Tim is 6'10.[/QUOTE]
Ben Wallace is 6'9 and Dwight Howard is 6'11 at the most.
Chuck Hayes is a 6'6 center and DeJuan Blair's natural position is center also.
Height certainly doesn't determine position
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=SCdac]Ben Wallace is 6'9 and Dwight Howard is 6'11 at the most.
Chuck Hayes is a 6'6 center and DeJuan Blair's natural position is center also.
Height certainly doesn't determine position[/QUOTE]
I've watched Tim play since the first time he played ACC ball. I know he is a center. To me he has always been a center. Best big since JABBAR. I only said he was 6'10 because people call him a 7 footer. Stupid Spurs fans have to be the most annoying trolls.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=joshwake]Yet it is taken into account when ranking players, don't act like you don't either. I shouldn't have to even try to pull examples that show this.[/QUOTE]
[B]Kobe Will End Up With More Points, Rebounds, Assists etc than Jordan Was He Better? :no:
If Longevity Makes a Player Better than Use It But It Doesn`t Malone Stayed at Better Level than Barkley True But Was Never a More Dominant Player than Barkley in Both Their Primes. Ever! More Numbers Look Nice On Paper To the Eye Thats All!
Dominance > Longevity
Jordan > Kobe
Barkley > Malone[/B]
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=rmt]What don't you understand about Barkley's [B]NUMEROUS[/B] statements that Duncan is the best PF ever? Does this statement not encompass the overall player and not the breaking down of "skills" as you keep doing? Are skills the entirety of a player? What about his intangibles - his leadership, the mental aspect of the game, the competitiveness, etc? You see basketball as just "skills" when it encompasses the entirety of the player and the total package.[/QUOTE]
Barkley has said, numerous times, that he was a better player but that Duncan has earned the title of the best PF ever. Duncan has the accomplishments, but he was also the most important player on those teams, so he earned it. But Barkley has always said that he was the better player, at his best.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=rmt]Are you forgetting 03 Duncan? Or do you think that Dirk's 11 run > Duncan's 03 run?[/QUOTE]
Damn I thought either Manu or Parker woulda been selected. Allstar guards for the west that year were Kobe, Steve Francis, Steve Nash, Gary Payton, and Stephon Marbury
To answer your question though, I do consider Dirk's run more impressive as he had a much stiffer challenge in the finals with Lebron's Heat compared to the Ason Kidd led Nets.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=barkleynash]Damn I thought either Manu or Parker woulda been selected. Allstar guards for the west that year were Kobe, Steve Francis, Steve Nash, Gary Payton, and Stephon Marbury
To answer your question though, I do consider [B]Dirk's run more impressive[/B] as he had a much stiffer challenge in the finals with Lebron's Heat compared to the Ason Kidd led Nets.[/QUOTE]
Dirk's run was indeed impressive but mostly on the offensive end of the court. Duncan was impressive on [B]BOTH[/B] ends of the court. Chandler was the one manning the paint (for which he was "rewarded" the next year with DPOY). As far as the competition is concerned, Lebron (who had won nothing as yet) and the newly-formed Heat vs Shaq/Kobe/Phil Jackson and the 3-time defending champions?
The experience difference in their team mates is also important. 2nd year Parker, 2nd year SJax, rookie Manu, 38 yr old DRob vs Terry, Kidd, Chandler, Marion, Barea. IMO, Duncan had to do a lot more heavy lifting than Dirk.
03 playoff Duncan/ 11 playoff Dirk
24.7 pts / [B]27.7 pts[/B]
[B]15.4 rebs[/B] / 8.1 rebs
[B]5.3 assts[/B] / 2.5 assts
[B]3.3 blks[/B] / 0.6 blks
[B]52.9 FG%[/B] / 48.5 FG%
Duncan led the Spurs in points, rebounds, assists and blocks. Dirk led the Mavs in points and FT%.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[B]Why is Dirk Name Even Mentined With Charles, Karl and Tim?[/B] :confusedshrug:
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Why is Dirk Name Even Mentined With Charles, Karl and Tim?[/B] :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
LOL.
1st off, Malone just wasn't a great player in the playoffs.
He stuffed the statsheet at first glance, but when you take a closer look, it looks much worse. The guy has a career playoff TS% of 52.6%. He only topped 58% TS in 2 playoff runs in his whole career. Dirk has a career playoff TS% of 58.1%.
Now, when you consider that Malone played the vast majority of his career being fed passes by John Stockton, and played a good part of his career at a time when league wide fg% was a good bit higher than during Dirk's career, the difference gets even more glaring.
Malone might've looked mighty good with his big muscles and raw stat sheet numbers, but the fact is, as a scoring threat he's simply nowhere near Dirk.
You should rather ask why Malone should be in the discussion.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=brain drain]LOL.
1st off, Malone just wasn't a great player in the playoffs.
He stuffed the statsheet at first glance, but when you take a closer look, it looks much worse. The guy has a career playoff TS% of 52.6%. He only topped 58% TS in 2 playoff runs in his whole career. Dirk has a career playoff TS% of 58.1%.
Now, when you consider that Malone played the vast majority of his career being fed passes by John Stockton, and played a good part of his career at a time when league wide fg% was a good bit higher than during Dirk's career, the difference gets even more glaring.
Malone might've looked mighty good with his big muscles and raw stat sheet numbers, but the fact is, as a scoring threat he's simply nowhere near Dirk.
You should rather ask why Malone should be in the discussion.[/QUOTE]
[B]Scoring Wise They are Very Similar....With Dirk Being a Better Pure Shooter.
Dirk Wasn`t the Post Player (late in his career he was very good) Malone Was. Dirk Wasn`t The Rebounder, Passer or Defender Malone Was.
Malone Was a Better Total Player.[/B]
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=rmt]Dirk's run was indeed impressive but mostly on the offensive end of the court. Duncan was impressive on [B]BOTH[/B] ends of the court. Chandler was the one manning the paint (for which he was "rewarded" the next year with DPOY). As far as the competition is concerned, Lebron (who had won nothing as yet) and the newly-formed Heat vs Shaq/Kobe/Phil Jackson and the 3-time defending champions?
The experience difference in their team mates is also important. 2nd year Parker, 2nd year SJax, rookie Manu, 38 yr old DRob vs Terry, Kidd, Chandler, Marion, Barea. IMO, Duncan had to do a lot more heavy lifting than Dirk.
03 playoff Duncan/ 11 playoff Dirk
24.7 pts / [B]27.7 pts[/B]
[B]15.4 rebs[/B] / 8.1 rebs
[B]5.3 assts[/B] / 2.5 assts
[B]3.3 blks[/B] / 0.6 blks
[B]52.9 FG%[/B] / 48.5 FG%
Duncan led the Spurs in points, rebounds, assists and blocks. Dirk led the Mavs in points and FT%.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but you conveniently left out some facts:
03 playoff Duncan/ 11 playoff Dirk
AGE 26 / [b]32[/b]
57.7 TS% / [B]60.9 TS%[/B] (What use is posting raw fg% when one player takes 0.3 3pa and the other 2.4 3pa)
And last but not least
Opposing teams Spurs 2003:
1st round Suns with Marbury & Rookie Amare as best players
2nd round Lakers (defending champs)
3rd round mavs without Dirk after 1.5 games
Finals Leastern Nets
vs
[B]Opposing Teams for Mavs 2011
1st round Portland
2nd round Lakers (defending champs)
3rd round OKC
Finals Big-Three Miami
[/B]
So we've got
- 2 playoff runs with a rather big difference as far as the quality of opposing teams is concerned (how many allstar caliber forwards did Duncan face during the 2003 run? How many "superteams"?),
- 2 players at completely different ages (go and check Duncan's playoff stats at 32 years)
- and two completely different ways how these players helped their teams win (Duncan did everything, Dirk dominated the 4th quarters in historical fashion).
So, what conclusion are you trying to draw from this great comparison?
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Scoring Wise They are Very Similar....With Dirk Being a Better Pure Shooter. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's ridiculous. When you've got two scorers who score at a similar rate, but one converts at a 6% higher clip, that's not "very similar" at all.
And Malone came into a league that hat a league wide average fg% of about 49%, whereas Dirk came into the league when the avg fg% was 44%. Plus Malone had Stockton. Similar scorers, my a$$.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=brain drain]
So we've got
- 2 playoff runs with a rather big difference as far as the quality of opposing teams is concerned (how many allstar caliber forwards did Duncan face during the 2003 run? How many "superteams"?),
- 2 players at completely different ages (go and check Duncan's playoff stats at 32 years)
- and two completely different ways how these players helped their teams win ([B][SIZE="5"]Duncan did everything[/SIZE][/B], Dirk dominated the 4th quarters in historical fashion).
So, what conclusion are you trying to draw from this great comparison?[/QUOTE]
How many All-star caliber big men did Dirk face? lol ... LaMarcus Aldridge? Serge Ibaka? Chris Bosh? :oldlol:
It's funny how the best defenders on the Mavs get no credit (Chandler, Marion, Kidd, and Stevenson)... You know, the guys who defended the best players Mavs went up against.
Duncan did in fact do everything (two way player). And it's really only paralleled by Hakeem when considering supporting cast.
Dirk won his championship when the best bigs of his era were all retiring or on their last legs... Duncan, Garnett, Shaq... think it's any coincidence?
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=SCdac]Dirk won his championship when the best bigs of his era were all retiring or on their last legs... Duncan, Garnett, Shaq... think it's any coincidence?[/QUOTE]
Are you trying to imply that Dirk and the Mavs only won the title because of the extremely weak competition they faced? That's a good one...
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=brain drain]That's ridiculous. When you've got two scorers who score at a similar rate, but one converts at a 6% higher clip, that's not "very similar" at all.
And Malone came into a league that hat a league wide average fg% of about 49%, whereas Dirk came into the league when the avg fg% was 44%. Plus Malone had Stockton. Similar scorers, my a$$.[/QUOTE]
[B]They Shot at Higher FG% in the 80s because the League was Stacked and Every Team Had Great Role Players, Shooters, Creators, Passeres and 2 All Stars Per Team
Also....Karl In Young Days Was a Master Finisher, Runner of Breaks and Pounded His Way With Strength For Points. As the Years Whent By He Was Less Mobile and Slower So He Developed a Very Good Post Game and Mid Range Shot and Was Less Physical.
Both Dirk and Malone Shot around the same Level at Play 46 or 47%. Both Where Not Efficiency Scorers. TS%? I Already Mentioned Dirk Was a Better Shooter: FT Shooter and 3-Point Shooter Are In It.
Was Dirk a Better Defender than Malone?
Was Dirk a Better Rebounder than Malone?
Was Dirk a Better Passer than Malone?
I Think Not.[/B]
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=brain drain]Are you trying to imply that Dirk and the Mavs only won the title because of the extremely weak competition they faced? That's a good one...[/QUOTE]
I'm implying that he won his championship when his biggest competitors at his position (big men in general) were all getting old and trailing off. Do you think it's coincidence?
Did Dirk guard Lebron? Did he guard Kobe? Did he guard Durant? ... Lets give some credit where it's due. The guys who allowed Dirk to be a one-dimensional force of a scorer.
Duncan was like Dirk + Chandler combined... best offensive and defensive player on the floor.
The competition argument is fair, but Duncan went up against the best center of all time in 2003 and the best dynasty of the last decade... While Dirk beat what, crappy Pau Gasol (who shat the bed even before the second round) and Chris Bosh? lol ... It's Marion who deserves the lion's share of credit for getting in Lebron's head.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=SCdac]How many All-star caliber big men did Dirk face? lol ... LaMarcus Aldridge? Serge Ibaka? Chris Bosh? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
All of those players are all-star caliber. Even Pau Gasol, who up until the playoffs was having a solid year.
[QUOTE]Dirk won his championship when the best bigs of his era were all retiring or on their last legs... Duncan, Garnett, Shaq... think it's any coincidence?[/QUOTE]
Still beat the defending back to back Lakers, the up and coming Thunder, and the Big 3 on the Heat, the one player everyone was hyping to be the greatest player of all-time before the Finals in LeBron James.
And it's no coincidence what so ever. The Mavericks weren't supposed to win a title that year.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=SCdac]I'm implying that he won his championship when his biggest competitors at his position (big men in general) were all getting old and trailing off. Do you think it's coincidence?[/QUOTE]
They weren't even supposed to be in the finals that year.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE]Why is Dirk Name Even Mentined With Charles, Karl and Tim?[/QUOTE]
You're kidding yourself if you think he doesn't.
Same goes with Elvin Hayes and Bob Pettit.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=SCdac]How many All-star caliber big men did Dirk face? lol ... LaMarcus Aldridge? Serge Ibaka? Chris Bosh? :oldlol: [/Quote]
Plus Gasol & Bynum. It was certainly a stronger competition than what Duncan faced in 2003, which was essentially Shaq, 1.5 games of Dirk, Rookie Amare and a bunch of scrubs.
[Quote]It's funny how the best defenders on the Mavs get no credit (Chandler, Marion, Kidd, and Stevenson)... You know, the guys who defended the best players Mavs went up against. [/Quote]
... and players like David Robinson and Bruce Bowen totally didn't do anything in the 2003 playoffs either....
[Quote]Duncan did in fact do everything (two way player). And it's really only paralleled by Hakeem when considering supporting cast.[/Quote]
Yeah, but he also did it agains historically weak competition by western conference standards. Had to go through one great team at full strength (Lakers) and that was basically it.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=brain drain]Yeah, but you conveniently left out some facts:
03 playoff Duncan/ 11 playoff Dirk
AGE 26 / [b]32[/b]
57.7 TS% / [B]60.9 TS%[/B] (What use is posting raw fg% when one player takes 0.3 3pa and the other 2.4 3pa)
And last but not least
Opposing teams Spurs 2003:
1st round Suns with Marbury & Rookie Amare as best players
2nd round Lakers (defending champs)
3rd round mavs without Dirk after 1.5 games
Finals Leastern Nets
vs
[B]Opposing Teams for Mavs 2011
1st round Portland
2nd round Lakers (defending champs)
3rd round OKC
Finals Big-Three Miami
[/B]
So we've got
- 2 playoff runs with a rather big difference as far as the quality of opposing teams is concerned (how many allstar caliber forwards did Duncan face during the 2003 run? How many "superteams"?),
- 2 players at completely different ages (go and check Duncan's playoff stats at 32 years)
- and two completely different ways how these players helped their teams win ([B][U]Duncan did everything[/U][/B], Dirk dominated the 4th quarters in historical fashion).
So, what conclusion are you trying to draw from this great comparison?[/QUOTE]
You may go on about competition although IMO a 3-time defending champion with 2 top 10 players and GOAT coach is better competition than a never-won Lebron James and Spoelstra and I can go on about quality/age/experience of team mates. Your own words above (bolded and underlined by me) are the answer. This comparison is about each respective playoff runs and I think it's clear that Duncan did more for the 03 Spurs than Dirk did for the 11 Mavs.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]All of those players are all-star caliber. Even Pau Gasol, who up until the playoffs was having a solid year.
Still beat the defending back to back Lakers, the up and coming Thunder, and the Big 3 on the Heat, the one player everyone was hyping to be the greatest player of all-time before the Finals in LeBron James.
[B]And it's no coincidence what so ever[/B]. The Mavericks weren't supposed to win a title that year.[/QUOTE]
you think if prime Shaq or Duncan are in the league the 2011 Mavs get through their team? .... doubtful
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=SCdac]you think if prime Shaq or Duncan are in the league the 2011 Mavs get through their team? .... doubtful[/QUOTE]
Nowitzki never ran into prime Shaq to get to the Finals. He got through Duncan, although he was playing hurt in the 06 series, but then you look back the 03 series, what if Nowtizki doesn't miss the rest of that series ?
Either way, their road in 2011 certainly wasn't easy.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=Round Mound]They Shot at Higher FG% in the 80s because the League was Stacked and Every Team Had Great Role Players, Shooters, Creators, Passeres and 2 All Stars Per Team
Also....Karl In Young Days Was a Master Finisher, Runner of Breaks and Pounded His Way With Strength For Points. As the Years Whent By He Was Less Mobile and Slower So He Developed a Very Good Post Game and Mid Range Shot and Was Less Physical.
[/Quote]
Malone just wasn't efficient in the playoffs at all. His avg. season TS% is about 5% higher than his playoff TS%. That should tell you all you need to know about the guy.
[Quote]Both Dirk and Malone Shot around the same Level at Play 46 or 47%. Both Where Not Efficiency Scorers. TS%? I Already Mentioned Dirk Was a Better Shooter: FT Shooter and 3-Point Shooter Are In It.[/Quote]
No, it means Dirk is a better SCORER. He converts a higher percentage of the opportunities he gets. Period.
[Quote]Was Dirk a Better Defender than Malone?
Was Dirk a Better Rebounder than Malone?
Was Dirk a Better Passer than Malone?
I Think Not.[/QUOTE]
Malone has a career playoff rebounding avg of 10.7, Dirk has a career rebounding avg of 10.3, if you factor in the higher pace in the 80s, that's a wash.
Malone has a career playoff avg of 3.2 apg, Dirk 2.6.
And that's your case?
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=rmt]You may go on about competition although IMO a 3-time defending champion with 2 top 10 players and GOAT coach is better competition than a never-won Lebron James and Spoelstra and I can go on about quality/age/experience of team mates.[/Quote]
What?
So 3peat Shaq+Kobe Lakers + Nelson Mavs without best player for most of series + a bunch of medicre teams > 2peat Kobe/Pau/Bynum - Lakers [b]plus[/b] Durant / Westbrook / Harden / Ibaka OKC [b]plus[/b] LBJ / Wade / Bosh - Heat [b]LOL![/b]
[Quote]Your own words above (bolded and underlined by me) are the answer. This comparison is about each respective playoff runs and I think it's clear that Duncan did more for the 03 Spurs than Dirk did for the 11 Mavs.[/QUOTE]
Duncan did more different things. However he didn't dominate 4th quarter scoring against 3 super teams in a row.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]You're kidding yourself if you think he doesn't.
Same goes with Elvin Hayes and Bob Pettit.[/QUOTE]
I'd strongly disagree on Elvin Hayes.
Other than that, this thread has gone to the point where most posters (not talking about you) aren't listening to anyone disagreeing. Time to bail.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
lol "3 super teams in a row" ... That's some extreme exaggeration of those teams.
the Thunder were 55-27 ... lead by a team of 22 year olds who'd never even gotten that far
the Lakers were 57--25... same record as the Mavs. Got swept while Pau continued to suck.
the Heat were 58-24.... a team pieced together on the fly (4-5 players from that team retired afterward). Lebron got punked by the D of Marion and Stevenson. kind of flukish but earned by the Mavs.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=SCdac]lol "3 super teams in a row" ... That's some extreme exaggeration of those teams.
the Thunder were 55-27 ... lead by a team of 22 year olds who'd never even gotten that far
the Lakers were 57--25... same record as the Mavs. Got swept while Pau continued to suck.
the Heat were 58-24.... a team pieced together on the fly (4-5 players from that team retired afterward). Lebron got punked by the D of Marion and Stevenson. kind of flukish but earned by the Mavs.[/QUOTE]
They weren't the favourites in 2 of those 3 matchups.
And no, the Heat weren't a "on the fly" team, they had a full training camp to work together. This wasn't the 08 Celtics or Lakers. A lot of the players that did retire were irrelevant as far main rotation players go.
But yes, it is a bit of an exaggeration.
[QUOTE=Whoah10115]I'd strongly disagree on Elvin Hayes.
Other than that, this thread has gone to the point where most posters (not talking about you) aren't listening to anyone disagreeing. Time to bail.[/QUOTE]
The only difference between Hayes and someone like Karl Malone, is John Stockton. Their such similar players, outside of the fact Hayes was more of jump shooter and Malone ran the floor better than any other PF, but it's a fact when you look at their careers. I don't see how Hayes doesn't score just as many points and play even longer with a John Stockton feeding him for easier baskets for 15+ years as starters together.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=SCdac]lol "3 super teams in a row" ... That's some extreme exaggeration of those teams.[/Quote]
Well, the Lakers and the Heat were definitely considered a super team that year. And the Thunder were definitely considered a super team a year later...
[Quote]the Thunder were 55-27 ... lead by a team of 22 year olds who'd never even gotten that far[/Quote]
LOL, so Durant, Westbrook & Harden were just another bunch of 22 year olds...
Well if you compare that to the 2003 Mavs, who'd never even gotten that far as well, but who also lost their best player during the series...
[Quote]the Lakers were 57--25... same record as the Mavs. Got swept while Pau continued to suck.[/Quote]
... and the 2002-2003 Lakers were 50-32, so...
[Quote]the Heat were 58-24.... a team pieced together on the fly (4-5 players from that team retired afterward). [/QUOTE]
So the 2011 Heat weren't a super team either? Compare that to the 2003 Nets and ask yourself which team you'd rather face...
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
Malone just wasn't efficient in the playoffs at all. His avg. season TS% is about 5% higher than his playoff TS%. That should tell you all you need to know about the guy.
No, it means Dirk is a better SCORER. He converts a higher percentage of the opportunities he gets. Period.
[B]At Court They are Around The Same Level. I Agree Malone Declined in the Play-Offs But At Court He Still As Good Scorer to Dirk. Dirk is a Better Shooter and 1 on 1 Player I`ll Give You That but Scorer? Around the Same Level. Lets Also Remember Malone Made a Living of Going to the FTline in his Prime He Was Much Harder To Stop and Created More Fouls than Dirk, Especially in His Prime ages 22-32.[/B]
Malone has a career playoff rebounding avg of 10.7, Dirk has a career rebounding avg of 10.3, if you factor in the higher pace in the 80s, that's a wash.
[B]Higher Pace? Don`t Give Me That Crap Again. Malone Was a Way Better Rebounder than Dirk...Especially in his Prime Days Where he Had Better Reaction to Get the Ball, Was Leaner and Was a Workhorse. Malone Was the Better Rebounder Ages 22-32 than Dirk Ever Was. You are Comparing Career Stat Wise and His Rebounding Numbers Declined Ages 33-40. Lets See Dirk Still Average 10 RPG After Age 33 or 34...They Will Definetly Decline[/B]
Malone has a career playoff avg of 3.2 apg, Dirk 2.6.
And that's your case?
[B]He Was a Better Passer and Was Doubled More than Dirk Ever Was in the Paint. He Was More Difficult to Stop Driving to the Basket With Power, Rumbling to the Rim With Power and Running the Break to Finish With Power
You Must Be a Mavs Fan or a German B-Ball Fan To Think Dir Was Better.
Dirk Was Pretty Much 1 Dimensional his Whole Career. A Great Scorer. Thats It.[/B]
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]
The only difference between Hayes and someone like Karl Malone, is John Stockton. Their such similar players, outside of the fact Hayes was more of jump shooter and Malone ran the floor better than any other PF, but it's a fact when you look at their careers. I don't see how Hayes doesn't score just as many points and play even longer with a John Stockton feeding him for easier baskets for 15+ years as starters together.[/QUOTE]
As a scorer, they're similar. The difference is not only Stockton but Malone's ability to fit into systems. Hayes was a guy who thought of himself, first. He got his numbers. Shaq did a lot of that, but Shaq was a million times better and a great passer and, surprisingly, not a ballhog.
After I posted that, I looked up his stats. I was surprised at his shots to points ratio...and in his rookie season he put up over 25 shots a game.
Hayes was a good defender but an overrated one. He wasn't any kind of passer, much less a willing one. Malone did plenty of the little things. He set great picks, played as a decoy, spaced the floor not just for his jumpshot, but for his team, with his jumpshot. Also, as you said, he ran the floor better than...any player period. Stuff like that is invaluable. His intangibles were thru the roof, whereas Hayes was mostly negative.
Obviously, he was lucky to play with Unseld. Not only did they complement each other perfectly, but Unseld is Mr. Intangibles. I wouldn't rank Hayes as high as Webber, either in talent or in output. Tho he did get a title.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=brain drain]So the 2011 Heat weren't a super team either? Compare that to the 2003 Nets and ask yourself which team you'd rather face...[/QUOTE]
The Heat are the only team deserving of that "Super team" tag, and even then, they proved you can't just win it on the fly throwing super stars and broken-down vets together. The Lakers at that point leading up to the playoffs (lost 5 straight) looked out of it - hardly a super team. The Thunder were inexperienced, young, and built successfully through a draft. That would be like calling the 2005 Spurs a super team. It would be an exaggeration.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=Round Mound]Lets Also Remember Malone Made a Living of Going to the FTline in his Prime He Was Much Harder To Stop and Created More Fouls than Dirk, Especially in His Prime ages 22-32.[/Quote]
Dirk has career playoff FGA of 8.8, Malone 8.9. Even if you gave Malone an avg of 11 for his first 10 seasons (which he probably hasn't, some of his worse FTA seasons came in his 20s), it still would only make him a .2 pt better scorer from the line than Dirk - Malone converted at 73.6%, Dirk at 89.3%
Malone has a career playoff rebounding avg of 10.7, Dirk has a career rebounding avg of 10.3, if you factor in the higher pace in the 80s, that's a wash.
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Higher Pace? Don`t Give Me That Crap Again. Malone Was a Way Better Rebounder than Dirk...Especially in his Prime Days Where he Had Better Reaction to Get the Ball, Was Leaner and Was a Workhorse. Malone Was the Better Rebounder Ages 22-32 than Dirk Ever Was. You are Comparing Career Stat Wise and His Rebounding Numbers Declined Ages 33-40. Lets See Dirk Still Average 10 RPG After Age 33 or 34...They Will Definetly Decline[/B][/QUOTE]
That's ridiculous. Dirk has a playoff TRB% of 14.3%, Malone 15.6.
Now, if you look at defensive rebounding, Malone's at 23.3, Dirk's 24.6.
Sure, If you limit Malone to x seasons, his numbers are better. Same is true for Dirk, whose playoff rebounding rate dropped in the 2010 and hasn't recovered since. So, Malone certainly had a much better longevity as a rebounder. But if you want to measure their rebounding ability, you need to compare defensive rebounding (because Dirk plays farther from the basket on offense) and playoffs (because that's when it counts). And apart from one single freak season by Malone (35 DRB%, in a 5 game run), the DRB% are astonishingly similar, Dirk even has more seasons in the >25 DRB% range than Malone has.
[Quote]Malone has a career playoff avg of 3.2 apg, Dirk 2.6.
And that's your case?
[B]He Was a Better Passer and Was Doubled More than Dirk Ever Was. He Was More Difficult to Stop Driving to the Basket With Power, Rumbling to the Rim With Power and Running the Break to Finish With Power[/B][/quote]
Well, if that was the case, the numbers would reflect it. They don't. Malone only had .6 apg more and he had significantly worse efficiency. And the fact that Malone's scoring efficiency dropped by a whopping 5% on average tells me that he was rather easy to game plan against. Compare that to Dirk who doesn't have this drop between reg season and post season.
[Quote]You Must Be a Mavs Fan or a German B-Ball Fan To Think Dir Was Better.
Dirk Was Pretty Much 1 Dimensional his Whole Career. A Great Scorer. Thats It.[/Quote]
You must be a victim of your own stereotypes. Over his career, Dirk has typically provided 3 important things for his teams: 1) very efficient volume scoring, 2) pulling a big defender out of the paint, clearing paths for slashers to the basket and 3) pretty damn good rebunding, especially in the playoffs.
If Dirk was just another efficient scorer and nothing else, and if he was just as bad a defender as some say, his results would be similar to Kevin Martin's. They aren't.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=SCdac]The Heat are the only team deserving of that "Super team" tag, and even then, they proved you can't just win it on the fly throwing super stars and broken-down vets together. The Lakers at that point leading up to the playoffs (lost 5 straight) looked out of it - hardly a super team. It would be an exaggeration.[/QUOTE]
Had Dallas not come along and beaten them, they'd have proven that you [i]can[/i] just win it on the fly throwing super stars and broken-down vets together.
Same thing with the Lakers. Before the series against Dallas, practically everyone was betting on the Lakers, lots of people even predicted a sweep. Turning around [i]after[/i] the series and claiming that they had sucked anyway is a litte rich. Following that logic, you can't win against a good opponent because your winning proves the opponed wasn't good.
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Re: Karl Malone on Dan Patrick Show "Charles is the 3d Best PF, Duncan is a Center...
[QUOTE=brain drain]What?
So 3peat Shaq+Kobe Lakers + Nelson Mavs without best player for most of series + a bunch of medicre teams > 2peat Kobe/Pau/Bynum - Lakers [b]plus[/b] Durant / Westbrook / Harden / Ibaka OKC [b]plus[/b] LBJ / Wade / Bosh - Heat [b]LOL![/b]
Duncan did more different things. However he didn't dominate 4th quarter scoring against [B]3 super teams[/B] in a row.[/QUOTE]
You call 11 OKC, 11 LAL and 11 MIA 3 super teams? Maybe only MIA qualifies - and still with a coach and superstar who had never won. 11 OKC was not a superstar team - Westbrooke in particular has grown tremendously over the past 2 years and look at how much improvement Ibaka has made just over the past summer. They are a superstar team NOW but not 2 years ago. LAL - I seem to recall a lot of Peja killing them from 3 pt land and Barea penetrating to the basket (and in the 4th quarter) at will.
What's so important about the 4th quarter? Don't the points, rebounds, assists and blocks in the first 3 quarters also count?
Think about switching Dirk onto the 03 Spurs and putting Duncan on the 11 Mavs. What do you think would happen? A lot of wide open 3s for Terry, Kidd and Peja and a defensive beast besides Chandler. Meanwhile, 38 year old DRob only played 23 mins in 03 playoffs - who's gonna protect the paint the rest of the time - Dirk? Yeah, I totally see Dirk guarding Prime Shaq (sarcasm).
You've also discounted each player's team mates - young, inexperienced 1st and 2nd year players (2nd, 3rd, 4th options) vs a bunch of hardened, experienced veterans.